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I can't be the only one demanding a nerf...

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  • I can't be the only one demanding a nerf...

    First of all, i play a VM, and yes, not from the beginning but from the time they started to be stupidly OP. And that is exactly why i feel they are in real need of a NERF and not a buff.

    Sadism has no reason to be in the game at all. Highest dps class beein able to heal itself by dealing damage, and this as a build-in, its just stupid. Mages are supposed to be squishy, to kite, to try to not get hit. If you are a mage and can face-tank everything, something is just not right. Also, it is the only class that has this mechanic build-in. (Yes, i think hector p.atk card is just as broken and should be reworked aswell, but thats a different topic, dont come arguing that it exists and that VM should be allowed to be able to heal himself from every damage they do because of hector card.) Just rework sadism entirely.

    Heed of the conjuror also needs a rework badly. Im fine with the way SoF and tempest work, if you nerf heed atleast. Make it non-permanent again as it used to be. VM gets so much damage for free just from having all 3 skills together. If you just change heed to an uptime of 10-20% with the possibility of 25-50% uptime with cards+cd-reduce from helm and passive, you'd do all other classes a huge favour.

    So thats my 2cents.
    (Keep in mind, its all about class-BALANCING - in my opinion that doesnt involve buffing every class until they can solo everything with +20 gears, but instead nerfing them so you actually have a reason to party, which multiplayer-games should be about ...)
    Last edited by Sylv; 26-09-17, 09:40 PM.

  • #2
    In a way your right but vm to be op needs op gear like all the classes every class is op because of 2 things weapons over +20 and pw gear... for 90% even with sadism in full effect they were crap even before the new epic their was a lot of slayers who were op.

    I think the vm got more op with the new way sof and tempest work the old way was fine.

    I think nazgul mention that they don't want to bring any class to the floor so the vm is fine as is imo. No reason to nerf or boost them...

    With op gear vm is still op as hell without most players need a party.

    I'm I the middle group I can solo and for the big things I need a party... I can do roa I can do new dungeon except bosses that's where the pt comes in with pet healer or full pt new dungeon is decent.

    VM is fine as is like all classes it can be op or garbage depending on gear or player and that's how I think the game works now. Going by what nazgul said the vm is the perfect example of what classes should be.

    Nazgul said they don't want to plummet any class to the ground so what you want won't happen... VM need a boost to sadism maybe 20% is fine for the lower gear players the op ones don't even need sadism.

    VM got better this epic no need to tweek it no reason for more nerf or boost only reason I say sadism is for the low tier player who do t have op gear.

    Comment


    • Sylv
      Sylv commented
      Editing a comment
      the thing about sadism at higher values then it is right now is that you basically dont ever die unless you get stunned. If you really want sadism to stay in, you have to give each class the possibilty to heal itself without actually having to use a heal, because that would slow down your ks, while vm just keeps on going. By that logic youre basically just asking to remove the possibility to receive damage at all from anything else but bosses - thats just not right

    • Whirlwind
      Whirlwind commented
      Editing a comment
      Vm is fine now as it is, especially damagewise. They are supposed to be true, real damage dealers in this game as per class description of chaos magician, VM is the natural evolution of that. With the Sadism-nerf they are back to being squishy. Do I like that big Sadism-nerf? Not really, but I understand the point that VM cannot have both, so the Sadism got pretty much taken away, especially for players with average equipment...which is the vast majority.

  • #3
    VM's aren't that bad with the sadism nerf- it's actually more intersesting to play now that you can't just pull an entire room, blast aoes and gather drops without even thinking about damage. Bosses are now quite a challenge- at 163 s4 bone dragon killed me quite a bit (depending on proc of fear etc) and even too many stuns from even a few mobs can get you in trouble quickly.

    It's a question of learning to spam fast- then you can kite a bit, heal up, use some other skills and then back to aoe/spamming.

    Overall the aoe damage on better geared players makes them able to level up faster than anything else.

    It's hard to say how to nerf it a bit on the damage front without making it too weak to be fun to play.
    Classic quotations: No issue here. Closing this thread.

    Comment


    • #4
      Sadism being that broken was just a huge oversight for the devs, since master class got released in E7.4, numbers were left unchecked, so alot of players just got spoiled imo.

      Surprised they are even up for discussion this quick, quite sure other classes need it way more then VM.

      Comment


      • #5
        Agreed. Heed used to last for only a few seconds with a 10 min cd before MC was introduced. Now it's a buff that most VM's can keep up permanently and the boost from it is rather large. A VM would still do a lot more more damage than everything else if the matk mod on heed was cut in half or the duration compared to the cd were to be lowered.

        Comment


        • BahlUni
          BahlUni commented
          Editing a comment
          Correct that was CM. Since they changed the skill itself, the on a CM uses got boosted as well

          The damage from all skills got upped a lot from the PW and helmet pieces. I do agree that VM's are balanced with Mercs. However, they are not on par with every other class and that's why I think heed should be reduced. Which is a similar reason as to why Wild Stream should get a much longer CD, but I'll leave that for merc discussion. A VM should naturally do more damage than any other class, but I would have settled for 2-4* as much as an average DD instead of a lot higher than a full party without VM, cor, merc or slayer.

        • PaulieWalnuts
          PaulieWalnuts commented
          Editing a comment
          Mercs are not balanced right now in my opinion. Check leaderboard. There are no active mercs in the top 40? After gathering all the gear for my merc toon, it is a disaster.

          The .1 second CD on WS accumulates into a 1 second CD on every third WS you try to cast. Mercenaries do not to the same damage, maybe on a mob that it has restrained but all the surrounding mobs, the WS damage has reduced. Now it is only 1/3 of the damage of the one you are targeting.

          All that aggro, no way to stay alive, DPS reduced by more than half. How is Merc on par with VM?

        • BahlUni
          BahlUni commented
          Editing a comment
          There are 5 mercs in the top 40. I think one of them stopped playing and know another that still plays. No clue about the other 3. There are many classes that don't even have a single entry at all in the top 40. With a maxed out 175 set and belt you can get to min damage on s3 devildom with a VM. Since a merc gets more vit a merc would reach that point faster. I'm not saying it's cheap, but it's possible.
          It's mainly AoE wise in which a merc can do similar damage to a VM. The damage inc mercs get from slowed mobs stacks with the inc from necklaces and the 3rd tree TP that increases damage on targets that have 99% or lower HP. Iirc that made the difference only about 10-20% between a slowed mob and a non slowed one on mobs that lost at least 1% of hp.

      • #6
        I have been thinking about what you have said about Sadism and I am coming around to your way of thinking. I think the problem with it is that it is simply a very reliable way of keeping your HP topped up. So, I will upset everyone and suggest that maybe it shouldn't heal you with a 100% chance, but that maybe it should heal for more than 5% when it does.

        Comment


        • Sylv
          Sylv commented
          Editing a comment
          This seems like a very good and reasonable change actually. Just make it less reliable, and then increase the maximum amount again. Would make the passive more fair to other classes

        • JustBrowsing98
          JustBrowsing98 commented
          Editing a comment
          I think there would be even more squealing from VMs if it was only a proc chance. Five % is plenty, you just need to learn to move, use skills and spam casts and you are up to 100% HP in no time Having SoL card in also helps- not sure how many VMs have adapted to use it yet, but if it is proc'd and you get in trouble you can kite and regen to 100%.

          My healer pet also heals for 80k or so, very useful if you take a big boss hit..

      • #7

        Revised VM changes

        Ok... ever since I got the belt, I've been thinking of things a little differently. The difference between what I can do, and what other maxed players can do in devildom is big. Although they can do better in some dungeons, e.g. I could never kill the bunny solo, or they might be better at PvP, I still feel some changes are needed.

        First and foremost:
        The way I see it, we wouldn't be discussing any further nerf to VM if it weren't for the universal pdef. If you want a one click fix for VM - implement Noire's idea. Otherwise keep reading.

        However I'd keep yushiva belt as OP as it is (or even boost it lol). It will be necessary for future stages, judging from the difference between s2 and 3. And with the sheer work needed to make the belt, its current form is fine.

        Intro:
        As always, I think VM should be the massive DD (in terms of aoe and single) that it is. It however shouldn't be the tank that it is. People shouldn't rb to VM thinking they'll tank. That won't be a given anymore - you'll need to work hard for it.
        Simply put, I propose that we increase the crowd controls duration, maybe increase the damage, keep time lapse, and remove sadism.

        Whenever I move to play on my second mage alt, and this alt has been all mage classes at this point, I have to get myself out of the rut of not using pet heals. Like, I forget to even set them down on the bar at times. On my corr, I learnt for the first time since I came back, that heals go on Q and R lol

        To be fair: I have the yushiva belt. So DD is piss easy now. But even before the belt, I could tank full rooms without a sweat. Corr can do the same. But the other mages can't. They gotta take it few mobs at a time. I think, if I'm pumping 30m spams, and 40m+ aoe damage a second (random guess but probably more), then I should be at least in the same boat as the others - a few mobs at a time.

        I think that reasoning is fair, no? You can tank full rooms with belt, np, there's a goal for you to get to, but unless you have this super ultimate belt, you gotta pay your dues. Or find a merc to tank for you.

        This class was nerfed hard this epic and somehow still remains one of the best -.- something is fundamentally wrong with it

        Anyway. Skills:
        Sadism: I'll give a few options
        A)Remove it.
        B)Make it give back LESS hp. Maybe 2%.
        C)Reduces cooldown of life leech?
        D)Remove it.
        E)activates only once per AoE, not including chain, and keep it at 5%.IMO this would be favourably to anyone seeking to both play this class and fixing it
        Sadisms (current) true power lies in the fact during dark spiral, you're essentially invincible. Or whenever you use an aoe stun, you're at max HP.

        (Secret option f: keep sadism the same and remove time lapse completely. In effect, that's reducing the damage and keeping the tankiness. My least favourite option.)

        Splash Thunder:
        Increased to 5s duration. Keep the cooldown. If sadism is changed. Otherwise keep as is.

        Heaven breaker:
        Reduce cooldown to 1.5 or 2 minutes . If sadism is changed. Otherwise keep as is.

        Meteor Shower:
        Increase the duration back to what it was originally, but on this I'm not too fussed. I like using MS to reposition mobs, and a longer duration would mean the mobs would scatter around.

        Dark Might: a kind of radical change for this skill, make it a self buff that increases m.ignore by, 10-20%. It's not too OP, but if youre going 1-3-3, you lose out on a chunk of mignore. Otherwise, make it a buff that increases damage by 3%, working the same way as necklaces, and a similar change to shining weapon.

        Corpse Drain HP - If you remove sadism completely, then I think this should be changed to work similarly to life leech. Either way it should give more HP than it does now.
        Another issue with the skill is it's difficult to click on a dead mob (shift click ten times to get it). I don't like using it unless to remove DOTs from the core bosses (using this removes any debuff from that mob). If this skill is ever to be useful, the original concept of using it on a corpse should be changed.

        Dispel Magic: Too OP. Doesn't make any sense for this skill to even exist. If we're keeping the skill, I'd suggest reverting to the version before E9.5.
        But I'd prefer this to be a cleansing skill, used on self, to remove any debuffs.

        Firestorm: It's a good skill, I don't mind it much. It's damage is on par with lightning field. But it has issues when positioning it on moving mobs. Fix that, or give it larger range.

        Darkness arrow: I have a few ideas,
        a) make it an aoe IF sadism is removed or only kicks once
        b) leave it as single target but increase the damage of each hit to 0.75x of what a spam would do. It's fast enough for you to spam less damage than to use it. Make CD 4 mins.

        Thunder Slayer: Needs a damage boost to deserve a spot on my bar. Does less than splash thunder and doesn't give any stuns.

        Abyssal Grip: IF sadism is changed, make this an AOE! We'll need ways of surviving. But only IF. Otherwise keep it as it is.

        Dark Renewal: As I said in the previous post, this should be changed to boost macc, similar to Hawkeye on a mercenary. Upto a maximum of 150 at level 15. So 140, since mage belts are bugged and don't increase passive. Fix that plz.

        Grim Attrition: As I said in my previous post, the increase for DoT should be based off max m.atk (or hp) not M.P.regen..

        Windy Shackle - reduce the CD of this skill. If sadism is changed. Otherwise keep as is.

        Sharp Tongue - (currently testing to see if it works in PvP. I know it works in PvE, so no change needed)

        Skins - Only good for pvp. And VM doesn't need anymore than that. Keep as is.

        I still also think that the first passive on first tree Apostle Of Darkness should be swapped around with Crushing Shadows

        There are a lot of useless skills I won't bother with. I can't see them ever becoming useful, but I'll add more to this if I can think of some

        Conclusion

        So there you have it. Most of these changes are dependant on sadism. If that's removed, then VM should be given more ways to survive. But those should be reasonable to both player and game. If its not removed, then change the pdef of universal gear. Let's fix this class once and for all.
        Last edited by Hitsuyga; 14-02-18, 05:13 PM.
        My youtube channel

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        • #8
          Finally someone who shares my thoughts on the VM.
          It is by far the char with the highest damage and on high gears is one of the best tanks in the game.
          Either half the damage or make the VM significantly less tanky (there is no reason why a VM should not be required to use a heal pet).

          By the way, the tankyness is only achieved on high gears, so it needs some thoughts on how to remove the tankiness on high gears without making the VM very weak on lower equip.

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          • #9
            when vm casts a new fire field or lightning field previous casts should removed, for now they can cast unlimited aoe it is not fair. Biggest problem mages becoming tanks so we do not need other classes especially in devildom.

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            • #10
              Their dmg and sadism needs to be nerf'd in general. Nerf spirit of fire, tempest, and heed of the conjuror. They should hit slightly harder than a corr and have more AoEs than a corr. They shouldn't be able to do almost double/triple their damage lol.

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              • #11
                VM's to have all that damage should be about as durable as oracle imo..

                Comment


                • #12
                  Nerf the damn aoes....Nobody needs other classes when you can farm events / xp a lot more while playing a vm....
                  The game is broken with aoes....
                  Last edited by Krustacidio; 23-10-18, 10:03 AM.

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                  • #13
                    VM needs its 2 dots , 2 single target burst skills and grim reworked. as of right now they are pointless. if people keep complaining about sadism. then why not make it like corr and give us mp instead of hp. then we can use our skins.

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