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Laraki's Real Thoughts on Slayer (@ Epic 9.6 Launch - Initial Impressions)

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  • Laraki's Real Thoughts on Slayer (@ Epic 9.6 Launch - Initial Impressions)

    Disclosure:
    This is my initial impressions - patch has been out for all of 2 days, that is not a long enough time to come to solid conclusions.


    Intro:


    In this Section, I will go through each skill included in patch notes, and tell you what I think was Good and Bad for each, and how I would change it if it were in my power to do so.

    Shadowforged plating:


    Above my minimum compelling values are what I believe would be the lowest acceptable change that would actually cause Shadowforged Plating to be a "compelling option" to slot onto gear in order to increase build diversity and make it of similar overall strength to Phase Blades. I do not feel it would come close to actually creating balance in the current state of the classes when slayer is compared to other options. The only way I feel you're going to be able to do that is to look at other classes stronger than slayer and adjust their values to be lower, right now this is Templar, Void Mage, Corruptor (Possibly), Overlord afaik - and to look at any class that is weaker, and adjust it's values to be higher.

    Phase Blades:


    Bloody Blade:


    Hellstorm:


    Pact With Darkness:


    Avoidance Expert:


    Oblivion:


    Blinding Dust:


    After Image:


    Adrenaline:


    React:


    Phantasm:


    *Under Construction - Updated - March 28, 2019*
    In this section I will talk about the patch, balance, things that were not changed but which I want to see, the game as a whole, as well as things which go unsaid in the above.

    Caveats:


    Things I want to see:


    Balance:


    The State of the Game:


    What goes unsaid:
    Last edited by Laraki; 29-03-19, 01:48 AM.

  • Laraki
    replied
    I have updated my post to include my thoughts on balance overall in the balance section at the bottom.
    Last edited by Laraki; 29-03-19, 01:37 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robertthebard
    commented on 's reply
    As I've been pointing out in all of the discussion about this, where is the Knight's aggro dumping mechanic/skills? They don't have them. Why don't they have them? Because they are supposed to be a tank. Soldiers, Mercs, Fighters and Champs don't have them either, and for the same reason. Holding aggro on a single mob isn't tanking, that's what you do when you solo, unless you're using HLPs, which is, I'm afraid, how a lot of the "but this class can do it" myths get started. There are no active skills for "oh crap" moments, when a healer pulls heal aggro, or when that mage hits an AoE at the wrong time. Especially now, with the nerf to PAtk/MAtk that comes with turning on SFP, and the nerf to crit. There is no huge Vit bump to make up for losing a percentage of your primary damage mitigation either, which is what happened when they decided to nerf Evasion too. So you're a DPS class with a tank based toggle, and no tanking skills, but hey, you can always use Distortion of Rage, and Cloak of Shadows so you can scroll res your party as needed, right?

  • Fearia
    commented on 's reply
    In france we got E4 for few month so I'll speak mainly for E5 and after, but I have to confirm that we had some excellent tanks who were assassins in wolf parties and on the island.
    As soon as a class have a warrior armor, it can tank. Either if it takes aggro with its dps (assassin, which get Distortion of Rage, Oblivion, and Cloak of Shadows to lose aggro when it is not supposed to tank) or with its fictive threat (Knight), or with a mix of both (soldier and champion).

  • Robertthebard
    commented on 's reply
    Yep, that would have totally changed the way those skills work, wouldn't it???

  • Laraki
    commented on 's reply
    Maybe you should have spent less time on the forums, and more time playing the game.

    In E4 and E5, while you were posting on the forums, I was tanking.

  • Robertthebard
    commented on 's reply
    Squonky, is that you???

    I was here, in E3, debating this very topic. I was here, in E4, continuing to debate this very topic. Not only was I here, but I was the forum mod for the Assassin forum. Care to guess how I got the job? Itoki was reading my posts helping other assassins assassin, and offered it to me. Nothing in the skill set for Assassin was ever designated "Tank". As I mentioned, we got plenty of skills to ditch aggro, but none to actually take it, other than through the roof dps. Which is also why we got Distortion of Rage, and Cloak of Shadows, aside from some very useful PvP uses for the latter.

    Secondly, this is a public forum, not your private playground. If you don't want people responding to you, start a blog. Your idea that assassin, or slayer was ever a true tank is discounted immediately upon reading the skill trees. Oblivion, when it works, if it does, was designed to prevent you from getting aggro. Distortion of Rage was designed to ditch aggro as well, and Cloak of Shadows certainly doesn't do anything to provoke mobs. Fighters and Holy Warriors both get Provoke. Provoke is designed specifically to get aggro, not ditch it.

    This isn't my opinion, these are facts. A simple read of the skills in question will demonstrate that.

  • Hitsuyga
    replied
    I like most of what I hear, but some counterpoints. If I dont counter it, I agree with it.

    Blinding dust: As slayer is now, blinding dust has to be close to permanent to be able to solo S6 - for higher geared players - without using the debilitating toggle. I wouldn't give it 0 CD, but I'd make it close to permanent

    Slayers evasion: Slayers evasion was never too high for me. I reached about 7k, which meant half the attacks were evaded, maybe more. If the intention is to keep sfp as it is, I would boost slayers evasion to close to what it was. That is, revert pact and adrenaline (keep avoidance as it is).
    if slayer is to be a 'tank', it should reasonably be able to evade, seeing as it cant reach the HP of other 'tanks'. That way, you dont need SFP to tank bosses. It gives us some breathing room for lower stages.

    React: As you get closer to end game, you build a lot of % damage reductions. Halving the damage reduction from this seems fair. Keep it as it is now.

    Afterimage: I hear it up half the time now? That seems ok. I like the idea of a third hit, but consider this: reduce the chance to activate to around a quarter of the time, and make it give the current phantasm buff.

    General comment: if you dont plan to remove sfp, then the damage on damage build should increase. Doing 3m on main hand is too low, for a maximum geared slayer. Their reasoning is, dd or tank, not both. Therefore, they could change sfp to counteract the increase in damage, BUT increase damage!

    They have to at the least return the damage we had before. If I believed they'd take it, I'd suggest to increase non SFP damage than it was before - and reduce damage further when using SFP but dont go crazy, aim for keeping the sfp damage values as they are now.

    This seems fair to me. When you're running with 150k hp, then surely you deserve more damage compared to when you were running 300k HP. When you're running 700k HP, your damage should be less than half of what it was when you were running 300k hp.

    Some reference values: I was doing 4m in s4. I would at the non sfp values take that to 4.5m, and at sfp values bring it down to 1.5m(as it is now)
    -----

    These are general comments tbh, and I'm not suggesting one ulterior build for slayer. I don't mean it for all to be taken at the same time. Take what you like.

    Lastly: any change to slayer should be done in a reasonable time frame. Anything longer than 3 months is a slap in the face
    Last edited by Hitsuyga; 23-03-19, 04:12 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Laraki
    commented on 's reply
    Guy, you can post you opinion in other threads. But let's get one thing straight. You're talking to someone who was there and who did it. So you're not going to come in here and convince Laraki that Assassin was not a tank. It was, and I was the one doing it.

    Edit:
    Going ahead and reading your entire comment, I will address some of the things that I think are valid. You're asking how these changes in this patch make the slayer a tank, just like you said, they don't. The reason they don't is that, just like you said, the patch took too much of the slayer's damage away, and did not do enough to make the slayer generate threat, and have the survivability necessary to take the type of incoming damage it needs to in the current end game content. Most of my suggestions in this thread, are suggestions aimed to fix those issues. But I do think the general way in which SFP was changed, from a passive to a toggle, and the general direction in which they aimed those changes, were a good thing, and I support that and feel that it brings slayer more in line with being an actual tank in current times, provided additional changes are made.
    Last edited by Laraki; 23-03-19, 03:24 PM.

  • Robertthebard
    replied
    You lost me at the first line in SFP. Where are the Distortion of Rage, Oblivion, and Cloak of Shadows, or equivalents for the other actual tanking classes?

    Those skills all have one thing in common, they are designed to reduce threat. Let that sink in, as we go over what a tank's role in a party is: To maintain threat on mobs that the party is currently engaging, to be able to mitigate the damage that this implies, and not be a resource sponge on the healer. Why would a tank class have skills that run counter to this? So SFP is now equivalent to a Fighter/Holy Warrior's Provoke. As we can see, in this very update, that skill wasn't enough, hence Templar got a buff to a lot of it's skills to help do the job it was designed to do, tank. Meanwhile, Slayer got it's overall damage output, the only reliable way a Slayer is going to get or keep threat, reduced. Slayer got it's primary damage mitigation, Evasion, nerfed as well. So how is this going to be a "true tank"?

    Leave a comment:

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