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Regarding the introduction of the stat "(PvP) Damage Absorb/Reduction"

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  • Regarding the introduction of the stat "(PvP) Damage Absorb/Reduction"

    Hello folks, I am here to point out a few very important issues with the stat/mechanic "Damage Absorb".
    This stat has been around on usFlyFF for a long time in terms of the Vindication Artifact, that adds 75% PvP Damage Absorb for 20sec on a 10minute cooldown. Another very rare item called "Combat Scroll 50", that could legitmately only obtained by a few people in minuscule amounts, would add 50% PvP Damage Absorb for 30sec but without(!) a cooldown. Meaning you can chain them together, if you - somehow - managed to acquire a lot of them.
    With last Xmas event, they introduced "Combat Scroll 20", which adds 20% PvP Damage reduction for 30sec, also without a cooldown. Needless to say, amongst many other things, the Combat Scroll 20 (or cb20 for short) has been duped/spawned heavily during the recent incidents and the server is still flooded with them.

    Now for Easter Event, they plan to introduce a Rabbit Fashion Set, that has as a main seteffect "10% Damage Absorb" and "10% HP".

    In the following I am going to illustrate how broken this "Damage Absorb" stat is, especially if it comes with permanent fashion or with no-cooldown consumables.

    Assuming you are a Forcemaster with HP-equipment in Guild Siege, using all consumables. Then the total HP% you have will be roughly 728%. This comes from both gear (20x Land R weapon, Hp% jewelry, 155 set+10 with 60% hp, standard hp% emerald joker casino fashion combo, and Dark Devils Cloak etc.) and from CS consumables (grilled eel, jack card, 3x blue 2011 card, 3x yellow fwc 2011 card, love chocolate 2h, 2x small valentine chocolate, 2x Pride of Victory, Potent/Unstable Acrobat flask, 2x Gingerbread, 2x 10% Hp bead etc.)

    When having, say, only 10% damage absorb (as from the Rabbit set), your effective Hp goes up by a factor of 1/0.9 = 1.1111 i.e an 11% increase in effective hp. Because someone now needs to deal 111 damage to kill you at 100 hp, since 111*0.9 = 100.

    So lets save that statement: 10% Damage Block increases effective HP by 1/0.9 = 1.11 i.e 11%.

    Let us now see how much extra HP% the aforementioned HP-Siege-Billposter would need on top, to acquire the same increased-Hp/Survivability effect.
    His HP prior to any imporment would be whatever his base is times (1+728/100), because thats how HP% works. it stacks additively with other HP%, or paraphrased differently: it only scales off base-HP.
    To work out the factor now, we'd have to find the missing HP% value X that needs to be added to that 728% from before in order to make an increase of 11%. In numbers that would mean
    (1+ [728 + X]/100) / (1+ 728/100) = 1.1111. Solving that equation for X yields, that X = 92. That means, that this harmless-looking 10%-Damage-Absorb from the Rabbit Set, would for this HP-BP-Sieger have the same effect as +92% HP. And I think we can all agree, that thats a very strong stat for a fashion set-effect right?.

    In order to understand why this effect happens and whats so special about "Damage Absorb" comapred to HP%, I'll elaborate the maths behind it:

    Your Effective HP or eHP for short is equal to whatever a potential attacker has to deal in damage in order to kill you. Thus it is calculated as follows eHP = HP / ( 1-SumDmgAbsorb ). As you can see, in order to increase your eHP (which is actually the onyl thing that matters!), HP and DmgAbsorb scale multiplicatively with each other (actually by division, which is the same as multiplication just the invers operation. dividing by 0.9 is the same as multiplying by 1.11). Therefore increasing Dmg-Absorb just a little bit has massive effects on everall Survivability (= eHP). Since it scales with all the massive HP people already obtained from HP%.
    As Dmg-Absorb is actually in the demoniator, as seen in the formula above, the effects get more and more pronounced the more DmG absorb is introduced. For example if you already have 20% Damage Absorb from, say, Combatscroll 20. An additionally 10% DmgAbsorb from Rabbit set would increase effective HP by 0.8/0.7 = 1.14 i.e by 14%, which is more than the 11% from above. That means the effect of 10% DmgAbsorb for the aforementoned HP-Siege-BP would be equivalent to +118% HP.
    Last edited by Hyaton; 10-04-20, 06:53 PM.

  • #2
    Admittedly, the massive effect of the DmgReduction stat on e.g the Rabbit set is especially pronounced in Siege on full CS, because consumables add mainly HP%. But even uncsed in say a PvM scenario, 10% DmgReduction would still be equivalent to +42% HP. Which i think we can still all agree would be stronger than intended for that Rabbit set.

    All of that was only 10% DmgReduction from Rabbit Set. I think I dont need to go through more calcs to prove how absolutely indescribably enourmous the effects of 20% Damage Reduction (from Combat Scroll 20) or even 50% Damage Reduction (from Combat Scroll 50) are.

    Hence, here are my action-suggestions:

    1. Adding DamageAbsorb on gear is extremely risky. It is permanent and will stack with other DamageAbsorbs from other items/consumables in absolutely broken ways, which eventually leads to everyone being unkillable. Do not get inspired by what Ph Playpark Flyff is doing. These masks / sets / eggs are completely game-ruining, whoever thought of them and proposed the idea of introducing them wasnt thinking straight or carelessly played around without fully understanding the math behind it.
    For the Rabbit Set I suggest changing the seteffect from "+10% DmgAbsorb" and +10% HP to +25% HP or +30% HP. Then this Rabbit Set would still be the best set. People would still need to re-gem, reupgrade, rebless their fashion. Webzen would still make their money through WCoin Purchases, but at least it doesnt break the game.
    I also strongly recommend to never add ANY sort of DamageAbsorb on (permanent) gear. This stat is too broken and the risk of some developer with poor mathskills fking everything up is way too high.

    2. The already exisiting, no-cooldown, spammable Combat scrolls 20 and 50 do absolutely need a cooldown. The normal artifacts all have cooldowns, why shouldnt Combat Scrolls have a cooldown? They around on-mass thanks to spawns/dupes and, as aforementioned calcs show, their impact is INSANE, like they are unbelievably strong.
    Thus my recommendation of adding a 5minute cooldown to the usage of combat scroll 20 and a 10minute cooldown to the usage of combat scroll 50.

    3. What is true on the defensive side for Combat Scroll 20, is also true for the offensive side for Uriel noodle and Uriel noodle (N). They add +50% MP without a cooldown. A Quick calc yields that using an Uriel Noodle for a BP increases his asal-dmg by 218/168 = 1.2976 roughly +30% Damage on the higher end and 235/185 = 1.27, roughly +27% Damage on the lower end. Its effect is thus slightly stronger than the effects of a CombatScroll20, which increases your eHP = 1/0.8 = 1.25 -> +25% And should be treated similarly.
    Therefore I recommend strongly again to add a 5minute cooldown to Uriel Noodle and Uriel Noodle (N), maybe even more for the (N)-noodle or make it non-stackable with the original noodle. Their effects are too strong.

    This is all I had to say, please consider this Piccolo & Klaig. We do not want US / DE / FR FlyFF to fall into the same balance-broken-game trap as PH PlayPark FlyFF.
    The Rabbit Set isnt released yet and its effects can still be changed afterwards. Cooldown for Combat20/50 and Noodles can still be introduced.

    I'm sure most of the sieging community would heavily appreciate you implementing these changes, they are very urgent. Thanks in advance and everyone have fun Flyffing away

    P.S: If there's any questions regarding the maths and theory behind the reasoning, I am available most of the time and offering my assistance via Discord
    Last edited by Hyaton; 10-04-20, 06:32 PM.


    • #3
      Yeah I cant really add anything more than what Hyaton already stated. One thing to note is that this stats sums together rather than multiplies, which means once you hit +100 damage absorb by combinging different items you become immortal, which is literally game-breaking. I hope the gms at least consider to change this set effect. Instead please go for PVP dmg. I'd rather that you buff the rangers, arcanists, yjs and blades instead of making things harder to kill.
      Axeell ~ Murano ~ Tanuki ~ Lv150 Dankmeister
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      • #4
        i agree 100% with this, it is additions like this to the game that will eventually kill it for us who are still doing guild siege every week and has invested alot into our characters.


        • #5
          in playpark (the official tw flyff) this event have another event


          look a this
          Ranger Summer Sunglasses 1 No Ranger Attack Speed+10%
          Increased Attack Power (Bow)+210
          Increased Critical Damage+12%
          Damage Absorb+50
          A Summer Sunglasses for Ranger Class.
          50% + rabbit set 30% ... (80%)


          • #6
            You mean the game that's (nowadays) based virtually solely on OP/broken mechanics and features introduced items that are OP/broken? I'm truly shocked.

            Yeah, high damage reduction percentages are stupid and any reasonable game would never allow these things to exist in their current state, but among the myriad of other broken mechanics in the game, this is just one more item on the list. Webzen won't bother addressing this on a serious and substantial level, because that'd just create the unspoken obligation for them to address all the other broken mechanics in the game. I'm all for fighting your battles, but I don't think you can realistically expect much gain here, unless it directly starts to affect Webzen's bottom line.