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Regarding the recent discussions about PvP/Siege balancing of the classes

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  • Regarding the recent discussions about PvP/Siege balancing of the classes

    Hey everyone,

    recently and right now people are heavily debating over a 30% damage nerf to asal for bps and over implementing a speed cap. Most people, that support this, argue that BPs are too strong and need a nerf.

    I want to argue mostly against this.

    Let me first go through the meta history of BP strength on US servers. (It is a little different on d, fr and euFlyff, because they dont have all jewels).
    When Rudolph Set was introduced, BPs became the strongest class. With the Introduction of Eversnow Set arcanists and crackshooters caught up and were equally strong. With the introduction of the 2016 Angels Set, BPs once again became the single strongest class. With Introduction of Dinner Set, crackshooters caught up, and arcas were stil left behind a little bit. Introduction of Skeleton Cloak slightly buffed crackshooters and arcas, left BPs unchanged, almost equal strength. With Introduction of the new Dark Devils Cloak arcas and cracks yet again experienced a huge buff that BPs dont benefit from. The Introduction of R cards, especially Land R cards, buffed all tanks and cracks and arcas again. Leaving BPs unchanged, as there is no Wind R card.

    As of now, looking at all sieges of all the servers, Crackshooters and Arcanists and BPs seem to be able equally viable and strong. No need to nerf BP in particular.

    Applying a 30% damage nerf to asal would mean that even a well-geared full-str BP will not be able to kill the average Land R ranger anymore. not to mention any of those 2m HP tripple stacked siegers. Actually a 30% damage nerf would ruin BP as a viable siege class. You would have to have perfect equipment and be full str be even have a chance to stay competetive.

    A speed cap might make sense, if it is set to be close to the theoretical maximum, say 1000% speed, which can be obtained with close to perfect gear + all consumables + 200% speed artifact. Such a speed cap woud also prevent the common Cheat-Engine PropMover cheat, which boosts speed to whatever value you like. Even a 900% speed cap would be okay imo. But definitely not some 500,600,700 Speed cap, that would render almost any BPs gear useless and nerf BP to a point that it actually cannot be played anymore.

    The current strengths and weaknesses of the classes are as follows:

    BP: strongest skill in the game, potentially able to 1shot anything except those HP-card stacked Land R RMs/Knights.. sometimes Rangers. That spell comes with a 15sec cooldown though and BPs are absolutely useless in that time and can just hope to not die while not being able to do anything. Also that spell requires to be in melee range, which is a disadvantage over the other classes.

    CrackShooter: Insane Range and Damage, firing 50-80% worth of asal dmg 3x times per second without cooldown and without cast animation at insane Range. Can you DI and counterattack to become very elusive. Doesnt require Wind Cards due to insane Range, therefore able to use Land R cards to be super tanky or Damage cards to boost damage into ridiculous levels. Biggest weakness: Blockrate. Arrows can be blocked. Though obtaining good blockrate gear is very hard and requires sacrifices in gear to be made. In addition blockrate is capped. You cannot actually achieve 100% blockrate, such that even if someone made perfect block gear (like me for example, check out Quuton on tanuki server), you can and will still die. (Personally I achieve 96-109% ranged blockrate in siege, depending on what CS I use and on average I still die once per siege to a ranger.) I'd like to add that outrunning arrows isnt really a strong argument, as a BP on the run is never allowed to stop (not even for asal), mess up any movement, or swap to non-block gear during the time an arrow is chasing you. It is an argument, but only a very weak one. Especially since you need really good speed in order to even outrun arrows, I believe at least around 650% speed is what is needed.

  • Shaymin
    commented on 's reply
    Hyaton The current pvp meta is unusable data, because its not a homogeneous but a heterogenous collection of people
    with vast differences in equipment quality (some of them are actually just plain stupid players).
    Taking the current meta as the basis for argumentation is the same as calculating the average annual income of a small village consisting of 9 people who earn something in between 3 to 7k per month and bill gates who earn(ed) multiple tens of millions per month
    by using the arithmetic mean. It's flat out wrong.

    The only right thing to do is to completly disregard the pvp meta of ANY server in this discussion or to look at a homogenous one which doesnt exist except in theory

  • Hyaton
    commented on 's reply
    You seem to be someone that isnt familiar with the *current* siege/pvp meta.
    Yes, BPs *used* to be OP. As I explained before. But as it stands *right now*, bps are very far from OP.
    Your points are based on the fact, that BPs were good *in the past*, but it's incorrect to conclude that therefore now, that they already experienced heavy relative nerfs and are very far from OP and very far from being the strongest class (Arcas wink wink), that they should be directly nerfed again.
    Your other point, that BP is by far the most popular *PvP* class, is correct though. Yet this argument cant stand against a nerf imo. Obviously BP is the most trash class in PvM and noone at all ever plays a PvM - Billposter (except for a small bunch of masochists.)
    It is also true that the current GMs (and almost all MODs) have not the slightest clue about actual gameplay, and any balance they propose are usually garbage. Since they have more say than us in these matters, it is better, as you said, to maintain the status quo and just hope that GMs dont mess up once again.

  • Nerve
    BPs have been running rampant for a decade so people have grown accustomed to the fact that they're retarded and see the current state as balanced. Add to that the fact that 90% of the (small) group of people still actually playing the game and sieging regularly mains or has a BP, you'd never get a solid backing for doing anything but buffing them.

    If you wanted to make a proper case for why BPs shouldn't be nerfed, you're going wrong by actually trying to justify their current state and you're hurting your credibility, because it's pretty evident BPs aren't exactly a healthy class in PvP.
    All you'd have to do to make a proper case against this (and any other balance) change, would be to use one of the following arguments:
    • BPs have been this way since pretty much the conception of Guild Siege, they have always filled the role they currently occupy and have always been the majority class in siege and other PvP, so why bother changing the status quo this late.
    • To change anything about class balance now, this late, would simply open the door for more (possibly bad) changes to classes and cause a torrent of people whining about this or that class for x or y reason without end, to the point where Webzen wouldn't know what to do with them (let's face it, the GMs barely know anything about actual gameplay) and make random shitty changes left and right.
    Either of those would be suitable arguments and coincidentally capture how I feel about making any sort of class balance changes at his point. If they start, they'd have to do a complete overhaul of pretty much every class to actually achieve a somewhat balanced state of PvP. Meanwhile, whether 90% of the people play a BP or if every class has a balanced representation, either way the wcoins webzen makes are essentially the same, which are simply based on the fragment of players still clinging onto this game enough to actually bother to buy them.

    It's kind of sad to see how other servers have a much more balanced and healthier PvP environment than the original, but I think it's just something we'll have to accept at this point.

    Last edited by Nerve; 26-01-19, 08:05 PM.

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  • Hyaton
    commented on 's reply
    The majority of you points are unfortunately invalid. I have the impression that you really arent familiar with the current siege meta.

    Just to name a few: there is no blind spot, its 3rd person perspective. Cant lure people into using an evasion spell, if you ever attended siege youd know that the immense speed+latency makes anticipating such things almost impossible, compare to YJs counterattack (which basically is a skill similar to the one youre suggesting). 3rd BP doesnt have a stun spell, only a chance-based one, that, if at all, combined with sonichand only has about 80% to stun, yet sonichand as an imcredible long cast animation which cannot be reduced by dct.
    I could go through basically every of your points and dismantle them. The point is you dont know what actual siege looks like, so youre tainting everyting in the wrong way.

    I agree there WAS a time were BPs could have been considered OP by the likes of you. Right after introduction of Rudo/Angel2016 Sets. Nowadays they are very far from op. BPs just are a very popular class that many people play and enjoy playing. It has by far the highest skill cap in siege and is a purely PvP-oriented class.
    BP has exactly one advantage over other classes: Asal. that spell used to gurantee a OHKO. not anymore though. look at siege. I for myself have incredibly good gear and I am full-str and I only asal about 1m. Sounds alot? It isnt. its actually so low, that some ppl can even tank my HC'ed asal (even tho hc isnt gonna work at all). Look at the meta. tripple stackable CS, LandR cards. any mediocrely class with the free CS + LandR just tanks. Asal cant even 1shot non-LandR ppl too well due to the new CS, there are 20x WindS / FireS siegers with over 1m hp. Asal might 1shot some badly geared ppl or farmers. But is faaaaar, very faaaaaaar from any guranteed OHKO. then there is this giant cooldown. Sieges usually last so short nowadays that even if you never die and get 1kill every 15sec you can at most end up with like 30pts. Whereas many other classes score 40-80pts within the first 2minutes only!
    I would even argue that right now as it stands, BPs are actually underpowered!
    BPs only have pvp, nothing else. They are the worst class at leveling and the worst at farming and in general just the worst at PvM. Common balancing-sense would tell you to make the worst PvM class to be the best PvP class, right? thats whats called. Yet BP isnt even the best BP-class right now. Obviously it has been different before and it might in the future change towards making BP good again. By right now as is stands with the current CS, Cards, numbers and so on, BP just isnt very great.

    I think every class has to have a reason to exist. So any class has to be good at either PvP or PvM or decent at both.

    This is currently more than fulfilled by Arcanists, they are actually the best at PvP and(!) PvM.
    Crackshooters are prolyl sharing 2nd/3rd place when it comes to PvP strenght, and their PvM abilites are above average.
    BPs are 2-3. spot, yet garbage at PvM
    Blades are sorta decent at PvP using wands, and very good at PvM
    Seraphs also decent at PvP, very good at PvM
    Knights.. kinda bad at pvp, just bad version of seraph and also worse at PvM, would need a both in one or both of these regions.
    Mentalists are absolutely very bad at PvP, their only viable playstyle is landR+tank +1hit rune, which have horrendous projectile speed, they can be somewhat decent at pvm, having good dmg spells that bypass blockrate, tho in general just a bad version of arcanist, would recommend a both in one or both departments.
    YJs are literally garbage, their pvp abilities are trash with 250k hops or sth as their maximum they can do absolutely nothing in this landR tank meta, their leveling and farming abilites with no-aoe spell and no high-dmg single target spells make YJ the by far worst class in the game in all departments, YJs need a huuuuuuge buffs, mostly to their dmg output.

    I think it is very clear now how the current game looks like. Most notably not every class is supposed to be equally strong in pvp, 2ndly BP certainly doesnt need any nerfs.

    The best and in my opinion only way to fix the balancing right now is:
    - Buff YJs HoP damage by alot, like +30-50% seems appriopriate, that would make them very good at PvP with thei low cooldown decent dmg spell in combination with DI and a bit of range. Still garbage at farming, but YJ just isnt meant to be a PvM class.
    - Mentalists need a Dmg buff on their single target dmg spells and maybe a sligjht buff towards their HP in general.. or unbug Crucio, so attacking a crucio'ed tanky-landR Mentalist can actually backfire
    - Knights prolly either need a little bit more HP, or a slighty faster animation on sneaker, or a way to consistently pull aggro from mobs towards them, nothing big.

    If stuff like that, or anything similar happens, the game would actually be surpsringly balanced.

    Id like to also mention that look at a 1v1 setup for BP vs Non-BP has no meaning, as Siege is not a 1v1 and it doesnt account for cooldowns.

    Also it is somewhat as Meanysword stated. One reason BPs sometimes look op is, because on most servers people have spent their money on making good BP gear.. but not so much on making good other-class-gear. So on most server there just is very much more and alot better BP gear than for other classes, which make them look stronger as they are since their counterparts dont actually have comparable gear.

  • Shaymin
    commented on 's reply
    Quote: "huge 15sec cooldown, no other pvp viable skill comes even close to that, for 15sec bp is just useless."
    => And no other skill in flyff reliably OHKOs 90% of the metagame either, so what's your point again?
    Rather than a disadvantage, I consider the cooldown the lesser of two disadvantages.
    Lets go through a little mind experiment.
    What would be the alternative to asal not having a 15sec cooldown? It would be that the skill would not be a skill anymore which
    makes it being affected by block rate as this is the only way to replace your disadvantage with another one.
    And at that point it's a pure game of luck. So 15sec cooldown > luck based results which every other crit-based class has to go through

    Quote "with new tripple stacklable CS and LandR cards, tanking even a well-geared full str asal is a piece of cake. very far from a certain OHKO"
    => Every class bar those who only intend to tank as much as possible, and as a result are completly harmless on the offensive side,
    are OHKO'd, so far I admit.

    Quote "All in all, BP/asal has its ups and downs, its up to the player to make them count (which is commonly referred to as skill)."
    => In itself, yes, Asal has it's downs. Compeared to other classes however, those "downs" cannot really be called "downs" anymore tho.

    Quote "Looking through the current MvPs across all servers rarely shows a BP nowadays, sorta shows that BPs, even tho it is certainly most popular, cant be argued to be the best class, certainly not OP in any sense."
    => Worst argument I've read for quite a while. You are litterally saying
    "BPs are not OP, because Non-BPs can win against Non-BPs". This is fundamentally wrong and invalid as an argument.

    There are two scenarios we have to look at but I will only go over one for now.

    1) 1on1 combat with three setups. (All offensive classes, no pure tanks involved)
    a] BP vs Non-Bp, both attack each other at the same time
    b] BP vs Non-Bp, The Non-Bp attacks first and gains a temporary time advantage over the other to inflict damage.
    c] BP vs Non-Bp, The Bp attacks first and gains a temporary time advantage over the other to inflict damage.

    The results (if both players are equally good geared) are as follows [Res A] BP wins [Res B] uncertain [Res C] BP wins
    in the vast majority of the time.

    Non-BPs achieving MvP =/= BP is not OP
    You know that this kind of arguing would categoricly exclude everything from being OP as long as it doesnt consistently achieves
    MvP, right? The what about we give rangers (for example) +20million HP by default and build independent.
    This would not be OP by your definition. Being OP doesnt require a class to make the most points.
    There are many ways how someone or something can be OP

    Quote "Giving players the option to evade skills, while BPs have 1 trick only, and then15sec of uselessness and helplessness completely kills the game."
    You named it yourself, make the ups and downs count, so what about swiching to crit gear and getting points that way in the mean time? It doesnt matter what you say by the way, because you have the posibillity to do so, Which makes it a choice and not a restriction.

    Quote "BPs will be unable to ever get a kill."
    That would only apply to brain-afk players who refuse to adapt.
    I purposely didnt mention the cooldown such a evasion skill would then need to see whether people will just take my suggestion "as is"
    or whether they would actually put some thought into it. Looks like you belong to the former.

    Those who cannot make their points anymore will only be very bad players. If we keep all other variables constant BPs will have the
    following options to still connect with asal
    1) Attack from your opponents blind spot
    2) lure him into "wasting" his evasion skill
    3) stun him then asal.

    PS: nerfs can always be applied, Your just painting everything pure black. Only a small portion of players would actually quit their BP
    and a part of them would eventually return anyways, because thats the way people behave in flyff. Regarding Webzen...
    First: They already got their money from those players
    Seconed: a part of them will just change their class which offsets a big chunk of the money not being spend to upgrade BP gear
    Last edited by Shaymin; 23-01-19, 11:01 PM.

  • Hyaton
    commented on 's reply
    direct nerfs cant be applied, because it would bp players immediately quit the game, which webzen certainly doesn't want.

    You name reasons Asal is overpowered, then I can name reasons it is underpowered:

    1) huge 15sec cooldown, no other pvp viable skill comes even close to that, for 15sec bp is just useless.
    2) with new tripple stacklable CS and LandR cards, tanking even a well-geared full str asal is a piece of cake. very far from a certain OHKO.
    3) affected by casttime yes, still much slower than any auto attack, where people just have basically max cast time without even building casttime gear.

    In your words, BP is sort of a popular OU-tier pokemon, that get can crush in certain teams and setups but can also get crushed in certain teams and setups, veeeery far from any mega-rayquaza tier.

    All in all, BP/asal has its ups and downs, its up to the player to make them count (which is commonly referred to as skill). Looking through the current MvPs across all servers rarely shows a BP nowadays, sorta shows that BPs, even tho it is certainly most popular, cant be argued to be the best class, certainly not OP in any sense.

    Giving players the option to evade skills, while BPs have 1 trick only, and then15sec of uselessness and helplessness completely kills the game. BPs will be unable to ever get a kill. This is one of the worst suggestions I have ever seen so far, sry bro xd

  • Shaymin
    Nerfing Classes has always been a viable solution, but it could also be done in different ways than you might think. You just have to do it in a clever way.

    And no, the argument that people have invested money doesnt count.
    Why? Because introducing new equipment does the exact same thing.
    What do you think people will do when there is suddenly a new knuckle with a MP +30%, STR +50, HP +30% effect?

    In case of Asal...
    People dont want it to be nerfed is simply because they have invested time and/or money
    into their characters and they dont want that effort to be devalued, not because Asal isnt overpowered.

    And yes, Asal is overpowered, because it combines..
    1) easy and overly consistent OHKOs
    2) unblockable
    3) affected by cast time to remove a time frame where your opponent could - in theory - still react
    Asal is pretty much the Mega-Rayquaza of Flyff (for those familliar with smogons tier lists)

    And yes there are many ways to balance Asal. Simply nerfing its damage is one way, although a lazy one.,
    The best way - one which forgoes touching asal at all - is to add an evasion skill to the vagrants skill tree which lets the player evade incoming attacks
    by giving him invurnerability frames. Halve to one whole seconed (must be tested) should be enough.

    That way it's entirely up to the players own skill whether he can evade Asal or not,
    and it's up to the BP+ player to make sure that you can use asal without him evading it.
    This would at least require genuine skill.
    Last edited by Shaymin; 23-01-19, 03:48 PM.

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  • Err0neous
    commented on 's reply
    It's true that you can't (read: shouldn't) do straight, large scale nerfs in a vacuum. The way it's traditionally done in the industry is to use power creep to buff everyone but buff some classes significantly less than others. We've seen this pretty much every expansion in every game since forever. Remember back in like v13ish when Rangers and Eles were considered absolute dogshit at everything but leveling? They've barely touched BPs directly since, well, ever, so they've been buffing the crap out of the other classes.

    When I talk about nerfing damage, let's reframe it in the context of power creep. I honest to god don't know what the current hp/damage standards are, but it's sounding like 800k hp and ~400-800k damage is a reasonable average. Even if I'm off by a bit, whatever, doesn't matter. Let's say we get v22, or whatever the next big update is. Z cards or whatever come out, everyone gets a new skill, there's some new set that's decidedly better than what's out right now. This new update provides gear that power creeps us up to a standard of ~3m hp and 1-2m damage. They buff all the non-asal skills, so BPs aren't complete shit, but they don't add much in the way of mana options and they buff hp so asal is no longer a 1hko (just cuz everyone is so tanky). They buff sonic hand, they buff stonehand, they buff all these other things, but asal, though not nerfed, is no longer as potent due to the context. Meanwhile, everyone else gets buffed like crazy (add the things to Mentalist and Harle).

    So buff everyone, just buff certain classes significantly less than others. And items (specifically things like Jar) can absolutely be nerfed between versions. There's no reason not to add a 2 second cooldown to Jar, even while potentially increasing the hp that can be stored in it.

  • Hyaton
    commented on 's reply
    Err0neous While one half of the changes you mention is good, the other half would instantly ruin and kill the entire game.
    Frankly, it is an MMO where people already have invested thousands of dollars into. You cannot nerf their classes. You can only buff the other classes. Thats just how it is. Also the only classes that really need a buff are YJs and mentalists. The other non-siege-dominant classes are op at leveling and farming. So they already have their role in the game named FlyFF.

    I think most of your input stems from the fact that you are not familiar with the current siege meta.

  • Err0neous
    commented on 's reply
    So what you're talking about is still toxic balancing. The BP speed playstyle doesn't revolve around skill in movement (though that is part of the equation), but rather about exploiting latency. We all know pos lag is never, ever going to be fixed, but that doesn't change the fact that, much like seraphs with ress bugs, you're trying to balance through bugs.

    Frankly, BPs are badly designed. They are absolutely synonymous with Asal at this point, a fact that you remember wasn't always the case. They have a remarkable amount of CC, and Sonic Hand is a skill with potential. Unfortunately, though, we've been in a 1HKO meta since the release of Jar. There will never be a situation where that can be balanced, at all, and even if a counter comes out it'll just turn into a tank meta (and that's always hellish).

    Have all the classes meet halfway. Put an internal cooldown on Jar/Mantis, and lower damage to remove the concept of a 1HKO with whatever the current hp levels are at. Cap speed at 500%, buff Crucio on Mentalists to reflect ability damage, make Satanology 100%, put a slow debuff on Yoyo hits, and raise YJ/Mentalist damage. YJ is the archetypal assassin, if anyone should have nuke damage it's them. Cracks just have no reason to be doing ranged asals, they're a dps class and should act like it (like Blades).

    New moral of this story? HP pools aren't the problem when you talk about immortality, the problem is sustain options with no counterplay other than 1hkos.

    PS: Did ya miss me, axypooh? <3

  • Meanysword
    my opinion people may not agree with but its very simple if others put the money into gear/ equips that bp's do they can be on par with that class weather its by surviving assal using all R cards on shields for max hp/stam to survive or its some other mechanic that the class takes advantage of such as speed aoe attacks to kill bps before they can get close enough to actually cast asal the real problem here is people dont want to invest like that into other classes because bp has been on top for a while and why would you invest money like that into another class when you could invest it into a bp/forcemaster.

    my idea isn't to make bp's worse but generally encourage people to invest in other classes built right (just like people have figured out for assal bp) any class has the chance to be amazing. you just have to figure it out and its gonna cost money just like asal bp's cost to make decent

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  • AxeellDaBlazer
    commented on 's reply
    "The real point is that one of two things has to happen. Either the other classes should be buffed like crazy, or these three should be nerfed to their level. I'll be honest and say I haven't played much in the last few years, but it sounds like very little has changed in terms of class viability. Having only three viable damage classes, and completely discounting Mentalists, Harlequins, and Blades, is nonsense."
    Problem here is main aspect that Kenan covers in his point, not all classes should be pvp oriented. Bps have really bad aoes, limiting their possiblities of leveling at the pace of other classes, they also have a pretty bad 1v1 damage in pvm and is basically only good at pvping. Pros and cons can be found with every other classes if you look at both the pvp aspect and the pvm aspect, since both are present in the game. However, both menatlist and yjs are now very poorly designed for both aspects. Mentalist got replaced by blades when the 1 hand wand, other hand axe thingy came out. Mentalists were good at dealing with bosses in the game cus they bypassed the block/miss. Now they are not that useful anymore compared to a crackshooter/blade using a wand with high crit. Yjs are limited in their damage both in 1v1 (around same as a bp, poorly) and in their kills (the damage caps at around 200-300k). Both these classes need some sort of buff in order for them to compete, either a buff in pvm or a buff in pvp, since they are both "meh" at either aspect right now.

    Nerfing the other classes could be an option, but it leaves out one important aspect, immortality. My bp, full csed with all the stackable cs... CANNOT.. die to a full str bp with fire S knuckle. Perhapse with noodle it is possible but my bp is far from perfect (my current hp is 1.86m hp). The asal nerf sort of got solved by introducing Dark skeleton cloak (increased hp and pvp damage) and stackable cs (which made tanking possible again, check this video for proof: Nerfing bps would be really bad, and yeah HC+asal could do it but since we can spam holys without cooldown, that wont be a thing :P

    "Your argument for having such a high speed cap is just as, if not more silly. You talk about outrunning projectiles. That's a mentality that normalizes and frankly promotes broken gameplay. The entire reason why Mentalists are so utterly unusable is because they are projectile based, and encouraging a playstyle where both spirit bombs and arrows can be outrun only further nullifies the classes that aren't overtuned. "
    Outrunning spirit bombs is easy due to their low speed, outrunning arrows is not. When ppl say that speed is op, they usually forget that most ppl cant handle that much speed, they fail jump alot. My povs are missleading in this way since I rarely fail jump and make rangers look weak, ie.

    However, easy as it might look, its difficult... very difficult in practice and not that many can actually pull it off consistently.

    Once again, Nerfing every class is possible but if ppl become unkillable its gonna be a useless game. Having a speed cap on about 400-500% (I have more uncsed xD) is questionable. If you're looking for slow bp duels, pservers perform better at that, the main problem is it rewards defensive playstyles. I'm not really gonna go into details here, since 90% of the population playing official flyff are not really dedicated to siege and will not understand terms etc, but the bp class is in sort, more fun and skillfull at higher speed, requires good movement, timing/game sense, opens up the possiblity of aggressive outcasts (reduced camping). In sort, bps are more fun to use if they are allowed to have alot of speed, problem is most ppl with high speed cannot use it, they fail jump etc which basically is the nerf xD skillfull ppl can jump around at high speed consistently without a problem, takes alot of time to learn/master.

    Projectiles is an interesting topic tho, Arrows are already fast enough but the other classes (i.e mentalists) are lacking that speed. A buff in speed would help out mentalist as you suggested but there are many different ways to boost mentalists and yjs in either pvp or pvm.

    Not every class in the game should be pvp oriented, but if they are not, atleast they should be pvm oriented. Bps are truely great for pvp, and skillfull ppl with great gear can score alot of points in siege, arcanist are good at dungeons, leveling and scoring alot in siege quickly (main targets are lower hp players tho, mostly newer players), crackshooters can either reach 1m hp and 300k arrows, or they can go 550-600k arrows with lesser hp and basically shoot asals.

    Blades are good at pvm obviously. Knights are good at tanking in both aspects aswell as dealing damage. Seraphs could be buffed hp-wise but they have a unique ability to ress ppl in siege, due to the ressbug. A seraph can thereby be both tanky, support with grasp, support with buffs and support with ress. Yjs and Psykeepers are lacking in both areas and should be buffed (buff these rather than nerfing the other classes to avoid immortality in pvp).

  • Err0neous
    Oh Hyaton, it has been a while.

    Every single one of your arguments misses the entire concept of balance. You're talking about three incredibly bloated, incredibly overtuned classes, and saying that nerfing one is unacceptable because other classes are even more overtuned. That's an unhealthy approach to any game.

    The real point is that one of two things has to happen. Either the other classes should be buffed like crazy, or these three should be nerfed to their level. I'll be honest and say I haven't played much in the last few years, but it sounds like very little has changed in terms of class viability. Having only three viable damage classes, and completely discounting Mentalists, Harlequins, and Blades, is nonsense.

    Your argument for having such a high speed cap is just as, if not more silly. You talk about outrunning projectiles. That's a mentality that normalizes and frankly promotes broken gameplay. The entire reason why Mentalists are so utterly unusable is because they are projectile based, and encouraging a playstyle where both spirit bombs and arrows can be outrun only further nullifies the classes that aren't overtuned.

    The point is, you don't want to do a flat nerf on Asal, or at least not only do that. You want to hard cap ICD and block, drop asal damage by about 50%, drop its cooldown by 50%, put an internal cooldown of 3 seconds on Jar, nerf Arc damage, increase non-arrow projectile speeds (both Harle and Mentalist), and lower the movespeed cap to about 400-500% (thus removing a source of intentional pos glitching at the same time).

    Moral of the story? Don't just nerf one class cuz others are more broken. Bring everyone onto the same, or at least a similar level.

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  • Meanysword
    alltho i am not really a seiger i dont believe bp need any nerfs the reasons for complaining are pretty simple what it boils down to is that people who want to beat extreemly geared bp's dont want to spend a few thousand making their own gear that big im guessing if you made a full tank mentalist with land R and whatever to maximize and spent a few thousand on it then you could easily compete with a full str asal bp in maxed gear the problem is bp has been so strong for a long time everyone says its not possible to beat them because they can 1 it anyone but the truth is anyone can 1 hit them also so gl and spend thousands if you want to be competative like all these people who invested in bilposters for the asal skill

    the answer to everyones problem is if they want to beat a bp spend as much money as they do

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