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Regarding the recent discussions about PvP/Siege balancing of the classes

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  • Regarding the recent discussions about PvP/Siege balancing of the classes

    Hey everyone,

    recently and right now people are heavily debating over a 30% damage nerf to asal for bps and over implementing a speed cap. Most people, that support this, argue that BPs are too strong and need a nerf.

    I want to argue mostly against this.

    Let me first go through the meta history of BP strength on US servers. (It is a little different on d, fr and euFlyff, because they dont have all jewels).
    When Rudolph Set was introduced, BPs became the strongest class. With the Introduction of Eversnow Set arcanists and crackshooters caught up and were equally strong. With the introduction of the 2016 Angels Set, BPs once again became the single strongest class. With Introduction of Dinner Set, crackshooters caught up, and arcas were stil left behind a little bit. Introduction of Skeleton Cloak slightly buffed crackshooters and arcas, left BPs unchanged, almost equal strength. With Introduction of the new Dark Devils Cloak arcas and cracks yet again experienced a huge buff that BPs dont benefit from. The Introduction of R cards, especially Land R cards, buffed all tanks and cracks and arcas again. Leaving BPs unchanged, as there is no Wind R card.

    As of now, looking at all sieges of all the servers, Crackshooters and Arcanists and BPs seem to be able equally viable and strong. No need to nerf BP in particular.

    Applying a 30% damage nerf to asal would mean that even a well-geared full-str BP will not be able to kill the average Land R ranger anymore. not to mention any of those 2m HP tripple stacked siegers. Actually a 30% damage nerf would ruin BP as a viable siege class. You would have to have perfect equipment and be full str be even have a chance to stay competetive.

    A speed cap might make sense, if it is set to be close to the theoretical maximum, say 1000% speed, which can be obtained with close to perfect gear + all consumables + 200% speed artifact. Such a speed cap woud also prevent the common Cheat-Engine PropMover cheat, which boosts speed to whatever value you like. Even a 900% speed cap would be okay imo. But definitely not some 500,600,700 Speed cap, that would render almost any BPs gear useless and nerf BP to a point that it actually cannot be played anymore.

    The current strengths and weaknesses of the classes are as follows:

    BP: strongest skill in the game, potentially able to 1shot anything except those HP-card stacked Land R RMs/Knights.. sometimes Rangers. That spell comes with a 15sec cooldown though and BPs are absolutely useless in that time and can just hope to not die while not being able to do anything. Also that spell requires to be in melee range, which is a disadvantage over the other classes.

    CrackShooter: Insane Range and Damage, firing 50-80% worth of asal dmg 3x times per second without cooldown and without cast animation at insane Range. Can you DI and counterattack to become very elusive. Doesnt require Wind Cards due to insane Range, therefore able to use Land R cards to be super tanky or Damage cards to boost damage into ridiculous levels. Biggest weakness: Blockrate. Arrows can be blocked. Though obtaining good blockrate gear is very hard and requires sacrifices in gear to be made. In addition blockrate is capped. You cannot actually achieve 100% blockrate, such that even if someone made perfect block gear (like me for example, check out Quuton on tanuki server), you can and will still die. (Personally I achieve 96-109% ranged blockrate in siege, depending on what CS I use and on average I still die once per siege to a ranger.) I'd like to add that outrunning arrows isnt really a strong argument, as a BP on the run is never allowed to stop (not even for asal), mess up any movement, or swap to non-block gear during the time an arrow is chasing you. It is an argument, but only a very weak one. Especially since you need really good speed in order to even outrun arrows, I believe at least around 650% speed is what is needed.

  • #2
    Arcanists: Has a very very strong and fast AoE spell with a huuuge area of a effect, that can also stun with a high chance. Benefits a lot from full siegers with lower HP targets. In populated servers like Mocomochi right now for example, the name of the game is arcanist. Even the current MvP on a less populated server Tanuki is a badly geared arcanist. Outscoring all perfect gear BP's. Biggest weakness: Earth Suits and high HP targets. Arcas also have little survivability.

    As it stands right now, these 3 classes are about even in strength. Which class prevails depends mainly on the circumstances, the individual gears, the meta of that particular server and so on. I dont see any of those classes as much stronger or weaker than the others.
    Most importantly, super huge nerfs like the intended 30% asal nerf or speed cap, will ruin this pretty balanced relationship right now. In my opinion this really is not allowed to happen. Indirect nerfs to BPs have been applied by introduction of Skele/Dark Devils cloak and R-cards.

    So what really needs to happen?

    In FlyFF there are 8 classes. Not 3. While not every class has to be equally strong in PvP as every other class due to other aspects of the game like PvM, some classes really do need huge buffs.
    In particular YJs and Mentalists need som huuuuuge buffs to make them either both PvM but mainly PvP viable.
    One could also think about buffs to Knights and RMs, maybe to Blades. For example lower PvM max Blockrate a little bit and so on. The options are infinite.
    At this moment, I also wanna add in, that BPs are absolute garbage when it comes to PvM right now, such that nerfing their only strength PvP into the ground would just immediatly kill the class itsself.

    All in all, balancing does need to happen. But certainly not a 30% asal nerf or some speed cap. Really these other classes, especially Harlequins and Psykeepers need huge buffs.

    So please mister GMs and MODs, dont jump to any fast conclusions, it can kill the game in an instant.


    • #3
      I agree 100% with this. Doenst make any sense to nerf bps.


      • #4
        I did not read the full post but I believe that BPs should not be nerfed, what should be nerfed is the stackable cs. CS should only be stacked once, no matter whether they are soul linked or not. This can improve the game for every class. Now regarding balancing changes, I have to agree that the top 3 performing classes atm and for many years now are Bps, crackshooters and arcanists.

        I believe that Yjs and psykeepers should be given some level. Some balancing ratio changes to increase their dmg and their pvm + pvp potential would be necessary. For psykeepers bombs should be revived and for yoyo jesters i would suggest higher dmg and higher ranger since they are also a ranged class and their range is low.

        I really do hope they as they tried to fix the asal by decreasing its pvp dmg by 30% (which in effect does not even affected asal, the developers did not even check before implementing the change), i believe they could do it easily for Yjs and psykeepers, higher pvp dmg, higher range, higher travel time (for bombs for psys and for pandemoniums for jesters). Thats all from me x


        • #5
          I am pretty sure all BP players will complain about this thing because they upgraded their stuffs to aim High asal and remember back in a days the only thing that matter to BP players are to get their ASAL HIGHER than anyone? so if you will reduced the asal damage -30% it will affect the game really much. Imagine how many people balance they stats and awake/augged many things and topped up many wcoins to do enough damage to kill tanky people? about the speed cap 800-1k% speed is enough most of the BP's in any server change their stats to make speed lmfao. I wonder how they will be upset if it gets lower than what they aim before that is completely loled.

          I agree 1000% speed lightning with his thread.
          Peace out!


          • #6
            Agreed with everything. Before the siege powerups were introduced, the asal nerf would've been fine. However now that we have those, if you nerf asal the only viable build in siege will soon be full sta with 1hit rune xD. I'm pretty sure if a BP was level 170 with perfect sta gear, no one would be able to kill him with asal already.

            E: about the "speedcap": It's obvious that gala already tries to limit the amount of speed people have, e.g. by not printing wind R cards or new speed powerups. Setting a hard cap of anything less than ~1000 on it would just be unfair to those who put a lot of effort in getting as much speed as possible. What I suggest instead is increasing the projectile speed of all non-instant things, such as arrows, psy bombs, arcanist astral moon etc, to match with the crazy speeds we have today.
            Last edited by Sedu; 15-01-19, 11:57 AM.


            • #7
              alltho i am not really a seiger i dont believe bp need any nerfs the reasons for complaining are pretty simple what it boils down to is that people who want to beat extreemly geared bp's dont want to spend a few thousand making their own gear that big im guessing if you made a full tank mentalist with land R and whatever to maximize and spent a few thousand on it then you could easily compete with a full str asal bp in maxed gear the problem is bp has been so strong for a long time everyone says its not possible to beat them because they can 1 it anyone but the truth is anyone can 1 hit them also so gl and spend thousands if you want to be competative like all these people who invested in bilposters for the asal skill

              the answer to everyones problem is if they want to beat a bp spend as much money as they do


              • #8
                Oh Hyaton, it has been a while.

                Every single one of your arguments misses the entire concept of balance. You're talking about three incredibly bloated, incredibly overtuned classes, and saying that nerfing one is unacceptable because other classes are even more overtuned. That's an unhealthy approach to any game.

                The real point is that one of two things has to happen. Either the other classes should be buffed like crazy, or these three should be nerfed to their level. I'll be honest and say I haven't played much in the last few years, but it sounds like very little has changed in terms of class viability. Having only three viable damage classes, and completely discounting Mentalists, Harlequins, and Blades, is nonsense.

                Your argument for having such a high speed cap is just as, if not more silly. You talk about outrunning projectiles. That's a mentality that normalizes and frankly promotes broken gameplay. The entire reason why Mentalists are so utterly unusable is because they are projectile based, and encouraging a playstyle where both spirit bombs and arrows can be outrun only further nullifies the classes that aren't overtuned.

                The point is, you don't want to do a flat nerf on Asal, or at least not only do that. You want to hard cap ICD and block, drop asal damage by about 50%, drop its cooldown by 50%, put an internal cooldown of 3 seconds on Jar, nerf Arc damage, increase non-arrow projectile speeds (both Harle and Mentalist), and lower the movespeed cap to about 400-500% (thus removing a source of intentional pos glitching at the same time).

                Moral of the story? Don't just nerf one class cuz others are more broken. Bring everyone onto the same, or at least a similar level.


                • Err0neous
                  Err0neous commented
                  Editing a comment
                  So what you're talking about is still toxic balancing. The BP speed playstyle doesn't revolve around skill in movement (though that is part of the equation), but rather about exploiting latency. We all know pos lag is never, ever going to be fixed, but that doesn't change the fact that, much like seraphs with ress bugs, you're trying to balance through bugs.

                  Frankly, BPs are badly designed. They are absolutely synonymous with Asal at this point, a fact that you remember wasn't always the case. They have a remarkable amount of CC, and Sonic Hand is a skill with potential. Unfortunately, though, we've been in a 1HKO meta since the release of Jar. There will never be a situation where that can be balanced, at all, and even if a counter comes out it'll just turn into a tank meta (and that's always hellish).

                  Have all the classes meet halfway. Put an internal cooldown on Jar/Mantis, and lower damage to remove the concept of a 1HKO with whatever the current hp levels are at. Cap speed at 500%, buff Crucio on Mentalists to reflect ability damage, make Satanology 100%, put a slow debuff on Yoyo hits, and raise YJ/Mentalist damage. YJ is the archetypal assassin, if anyone should have nuke damage it's them. Cracks just have no reason to be doing ranged asals, they're a dps class and should act like it (like Blades).

                  New moral of this story? HP pools aren't the problem when you talk about immortality, the problem is sustain options with no counterplay other than 1hkos.

                  PS: Did ya miss me, axypooh? <3

                • Hyaton
                  Hyaton commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Err0neous While one half of the changes you mention is good, the other half would instantly ruin and kill the entire game.
                  Frankly, it is an MMO where people already have invested thousands of dollars into. You cannot nerf their classes. You can only buff the other classes. Thats just how it is. Also the only classes that really need a buff are YJs and mentalists. The other non-siege-dominant classes are op at leveling and farming. So they already have their role in the game named FlyFF.

                  I think most of your input stems from the fact that you are not familiar with the current siege meta.

                • Err0neous
                  Err0neous commented
                  Editing a comment
                  It's true that you can't (read: shouldn't) do straight, large scale nerfs in a vacuum. The way it's traditionally done in the industry is to use power creep to buff everyone but buff some classes significantly less than others. We've seen this pretty much every expansion in every game since forever. Remember back in like v13ish when Rangers and Eles were considered absolute dogshit at everything but leveling? They've barely touched BPs directly since, well, ever, so they've been buffing the crap out of the other classes.

                  When I talk about nerfing damage, let's reframe it in the context of power creep. I honest to god don't know what the current hp/damage standards are, but it's sounding like 800k hp and ~400-800k damage is a reasonable average. Even if I'm off by a bit, whatever, doesn't matter. Let's say we get v22, or whatever the next big update is. Z cards or whatever come out, everyone gets a new skill, there's some new set that's decidedly better than what's out right now. This new update provides gear that power creeps us up to a standard of ~3m hp and 1-2m damage. They buff all the non-asal skills, so BPs aren't complete shit, but they don't add much in the way of mana options and they buff hp so asal is no longer a 1hko (just cuz everyone is so tanky). They buff sonic hand, they buff stonehand, they buff all these other things, but asal, though not nerfed, is no longer as potent due to the context. Meanwhile, everyone else gets buffed like crazy (add the things to Mentalist and Harle).

                  So buff everyone, just buff certain classes significantly less than others. And items (specifically things like Jar) can absolutely be nerfed between versions. There's no reason not to add a 2 second cooldown to Jar, even while potentially increasing the hp that can be stored in it.

              • #9
                my opinion people may not agree with but its very simple if others put the money into gear/ equips that bp's do they can be on par with that class weather its by surviving assal using all R cards on shields for max hp/stam to survive or its some other mechanic that the class takes advantage of such as speed aoe attacks to kill bps before they can get close enough to actually cast asal the real problem here is people dont want to invest like that into other classes because bp has been on top for a while and why would you invest money like that into another class when you could invest it into a bp/forcemaster.

                my idea isn't to make bp's worse but generally encourage people to invest in other classes built right (just like people have figured out for assal bp) any class has the chance to be amazing. you just have to figure it out and its gonna cost money just like asal bp's cost to make decent


                • #10
                  Nerfing Classes has always been a viable solution, but it could also be done in different ways than you might think. You just have to do it in a clever way.

                  And no, the argument that people have invested money doesnt count.
                  Why? Because introducing new equipment does the exact same thing.
                  What do you think people will do when there is suddenly a new knuckle with a MP +30%, STR +50, HP +30% effect?

                  In case of Asal...
                  People dont want it to be nerfed is simply because they have invested time and/or money
                  into their characters and they dont want that effort to be devalued, not because Asal isnt overpowered.

                  And yes, Asal is overpowered, because it combines..
                  1) easy and overly consistent OHKOs
                  2) unblockable
                  3) affected by cast time to remove a time frame where your opponent could - in theory - still react
                  Asal is pretty much the Mega-Rayquaza of Flyff (for those familliar with smogons tier lists)

                  And yes there are many ways to balance Asal. Simply nerfing its damage is one way, although a lazy one.,
                  The best way - one which forgoes touching asal at all - is to add an evasion skill to the vagrants skill tree which lets the player evade incoming attacks
                  by giving him invurnerability frames. Halve to one whole seconed (must be tested) should be enough.

                  That way it's entirely up to the players own skill whether he can evade Asal or not,
                  and it's up to the BP+ player to make sure that you can use asal without him evading it.
                  This would at least require genuine skill.
                  Last edited by Shaymin; 23-01-19, 03:48 PM.


                  • Hyaton
                    Hyaton commented
                    Editing a comment
                    direct nerfs cant be applied, because it would bp players immediately quit the game, which webzen certainly doesn't want.

                    You name reasons Asal is overpowered, then I can name reasons it is underpowered:

                    1) huge 15sec cooldown, no other pvp viable skill comes even close to that, for 15sec bp is just useless.
                    2) with new tripple stacklable CS and LandR cards, tanking even a well-geared full str asal is a piece of cake. very far from a certain OHKO.
                    3) affected by casttime yes, still much slower than any auto attack, where people just have basically max cast time without even building casttime gear.

                    In your words, BP is sort of a popular OU-tier pokemon, that get can crush in certain teams and setups but can also get crushed in certain teams and setups, veeeery far from any mega-rayquaza tier.

                    All in all, BP/asal has its ups and downs, its up to the player to make them count (which is commonly referred to as skill). Looking through the current MvPs across all servers rarely shows a BP nowadays, sorta shows that BPs, even tho it is certainly most popular, cant be argued to be the best class, certainly not OP in any sense.

                    Giving players the option to evade skills, while BPs have 1 trick only, and then15sec of uselessness and helplessness completely kills the game. BPs will be unable to ever get a kill. This is one of the worst suggestions I have ever seen so far, sry bro xd

                  • Shaymin
                    Shaymin commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Quote: "huge 15sec cooldown, no other pvp viable skill comes even close to that, for 15sec bp is just useless."
                    => And no other skill in flyff reliably OHKOs 90% of the metagame either, so what's your point again?
                    Rather than a disadvantage, I consider the cooldown the lesser of two disadvantages.
                    Lets go through a little mind experiment.
                    What would be the alternative to asal not having a 15sec cooldown? It would be that the skill would not be a skill anymore which
                    makes it being affected by block rate as this is the only way to replace your disadvantage with another one.
                    And at that point it's a pure game of luck. So 15sec cooldown > luck based results which every other crit-based class has to go through

                    Quote "with new tripple stacklable CS and LandR cards, tanking even a well-geared full str asal is a piece of cake. very far from a certain OHKO"
                    => Every class bar those who only intend to tank as much as possible, and as a result are completly harmless on the offensive side,
                    are OHKO'd, so far I admit.

                    Quote "All in all, BP/asal has its ups and downs, its up to the player to make them count (which is commonly referred to as skill)."
                    => In itself, yes, Asal has it's downs. Compeared to other classes however, those "downs" cannot really be called "downs" anymore tho.

                    Quote "Looking through the current MvPs across all servers rarely shows a BP nowadays, sorta shows that BPs, even tho it is certainly most popular, cant be argued to be the best class, certainly not OP in any sense."
                    => Worst argument I've read for quite a while. You are litterally saying
                    "BPs are not OP, because Non-BPs can win against Non-BPs". This is fundamentally wrong and invalid as an argument.

                    There are two scenarios we have to look at but I will only go over one for now.

                    1) 1on1 combat with three setups. (All offensive classes, no pure tanks involved)
                    a] BP vs Non-Bp, both attack each other at the same time
                    b] BP vs Non-Bp, The Non-Bp attacks first and gains a temporary time advantage over the other to inflict damage.
                    c] BP vs Non-Bp, The Bp attacks first and gains a temporary time advantage over the other to inflict damage.

                    The results (if both players are equally good geared) are as follows [Res A] BP wins [Res B] uncertain [Res C] BP wins
                    in the vast majority of the time.

                    Non-BPs achieving MvP =/= BP is not OP
                    You know that this kind of arguing would categoricly exclude everything from being OP as long as it doesnt consistently achieves
                    MvP, right? The what about we give rangers (for example) +20million HP by default and build independent.
                    This would not be OP by your definition. Being OP doesnt require a class to make the most points.
                    There are many ways how someone or something can be OP

                    Quote "Giving players the option to evade skills, while BPs have 1 trick only, and then15sec of uselessness and helplessness completely kills the game."
                    You named it yourself, make the ups and downs count, so what about swiching to crit gear and getting points that way in the mean time? It doesnt matter what you say by the way, because you have the posibillity to do so, Which makes it a choice and not a restriction.

                    Quote "BPs will be unable to ever get a kill."
                    That would only apply to brain-afk players who refuse to adapt.
                    I purposely didnt mention the cooldown such a evasion skill would then need to see whether people will just take my suggestion "as is"
                    or whether they would actually put some thought into it. Looks like you belong to the former.

                    Those who cannot make their points anymore will only be very bad players. If we keep all other variables constant BPs will have the
                    following options to still connect with asal
                    1) Attack from your opponents blind spot
                    2) lure him into "wasting" his evasion skill
                    3) stun him then asal.

                    PS: nerfs can always be applied, Your just painting everything pure black. Only a small portion of players would actually quit their BP
                    and a part of them would eventually return anyways, because thats the way people behave in flyff. Regarding Webzen...
                    First: They already got their money from those players
                    Seconed: a part of them will just change their class which offsets a big chunk of the money not being spend to upgrade BP gear
                    Last edited by Shaymin; 23-01-19, 11:01 PM.

                  • Hyaton
                    Hyaton commented
                    Editing a comment
                    The majority of you points are unfortunately invalid. I have the impression that you really arent familiar with the current siege meta.

                    Just to name a few: there is no blind spot, its 3rd person perspective. Cant lure people into using an evasion spell, if you ever attended siege youd know that the immense speed+latency makes anticipating such things almost impossible, compare to YJs counterattack (which basically is a skill similar to the one youre suggesting). 3rd BP doesnt have a stun spell, only a chance-based one, that, if at all, combined with sonichand only has about 80% to stun, yet sonichand as an imcredible long cast animation which cannot be reduced by dct.
                    I could go through basically every of your points and dismantle them. The point is you dont know what actual siege looks like, so youre tainting everyting in the wrong way.

                    I agree there WAS a time were BPs could have been considered OP by the likes of you. Right after introduction of Rudo/Angel2016 Sets. Nowadays they are very far from op. BPs just are a very popular class that many people play and enjoy playing. It has by far the highest skill cap in siege and is a purely PvP-oriented class.
                    BP has exactly one advantage over other classes: Asal. that spell used to gurantee a OHKO. not anymore though. look at siege. I for myself have incredibly good gear and I am full-str and I only asal about 1m. Sounds alot? It isnt. its actually so low, that some ppl can even tank my HC'ed asal (even tho hc isnt gonna work at all). Look at the meta. tripple stackable CS, LandR cards. any mediocrely class with the free CS + LandR just tanks. Asal cant even 1shot non-LandR ppl too well due to the new CS, there are 20x WindS / FireS siegers with over 1m hp. Asal might 1shot some badly geared ppl or farmers. But is faaaaar, very faaaaaaar from any guranteed OHKO. then there is this giant cooldown. Sieges usually last so short nowadays that even if you never die and get 1kill every 15sec you can at most end up with like 30pts. Whereas many other classes score 40-80pts within the first 2minutes only!
                    I would even argue that right now as it stands, BPs are actually underpowered!
                    BPs only have pvp, nothing else. They are the worst class at leveling and the worst at farming and in general just the worst at PvM. Common balancing-sense would tell you to make the worst PvM class to be the best PvP class, right? thats whats called. Yet BP isnt even the best BP-class right now. Obviously it has been different before and it might in the future change towards making BP good again. By right now as is stands with the current CS, Cards, numbers and so on, BP just isnt very great.

                    I think every class has to have a reason to exist. So any class has to be good at either PvP or PvM or decent at both.

                    This is currently more than fulfilled by Arcanists, they are actually the best at PvP and(!) PvM.
                    Crackshooters are prolyl sharing 2nd/3rd place when it comes to PvP strenght, and their PvM abilites are above average.
                    BPs are 2-3. spot, yet garbage at PvM
                    Blades are sorta decent at PvP using wands, and very good at PvM
                    Seraphs also decent at PvP, very good at PvM
                    Knights.. kinda bad at pvp, just bad version of seraph and also worse at PvM, would need a both in one or both of these regions.
                    Mentalists are absolutely very bad at PvP, their only viable playstyle is landR+tank +1hit rune, which have horrendous projectile speed, they can be somewhat decent at pvm, having good dmg spells that bypass blockrate, tho in general just a bad version of arcanist, would recommend a both in one or both departments.
                    YJs are literally garbage, their pvp abilities are trash with 250k hops or sth as their maximum they can do absolutely nothing in this landR tank meta, their leveling and farming abilites with no-aoe spell and no high-dmg single target spells make YJ the by far worst class in the game in all departments, YJs need a huuuuuuge buffs, mostly to their dmg output.

                    I think it is very clear now how the current game looks like. Most notably not every class is supposed to be equally strong in pvp, 2ndly BP certainly doesnt need any nerfs.

                    The best and in my opinion only way to fix the balancing right now is:
                    - Buff YJs HoP damage by alot, like +30-50% seems appriopriate, that would make them very good at PvP with thei low cooldown decent dmg spell in combination with DI and a bit of range. Still garbage at farming, but YJ just isnt meant to be a PvM class.
                    - Mentalists need a Dmg buff on their single target dmg spells and maybe a sligjht buff towards their HP in general.. or unbug Crucio, so attacking a crucio'ed tanky-landR Mentalist can actually backfire
                    - Knights prolly either need a little bit more HP, or a slighty faster animation on sneaker, or a way to consistently pull aggro from mobs towards them, nothing big.

                    If stuff like that, or anything similar happens, the game would actually be surpsringly balanced.

                    Id like to also mention that look at a 1v1 setup for BP vs Non-BP has no meaning, as Siege is not a 1v1 and it doesnt account for cooldowns.

                    Also it is somewhat as Meanysword stated. One reason BPs sometimes look op is, because on most servers people have spent their money on making good BP gear.. but not so much on making good other-class-gear. So on most server there just is very much more and alot better BP gear than for other classes, which make them look stronger as they are since their counterparts dont actually have comparable gear.

                • #11
                  BPs have been running rampant for a decade so people have grown accustomed to the fact that they're retarded and see the current state as balanced. Add to that the fact that 90% of the (small) group of people still actually playing the game and sieging regularly mains or has a BP, you'd never get a solid backing for doing anything but buffing them.

                  If you wanted to make a proper case for why BPs shouldn't be nerfed, you're going wrong by actually trying to justify their current state and you're hurting your credibility, because it's pretty evident BPs aren't exactly a healthy class in PvP.
                  All you'd have to do to make a proper case against this (and any other balance) change, would be to use one of the following arguments:
                  • BPs have been this way since pretty much the conception of Guild Siege, they have always filled the role they currently occupy and have always been the majority class in siege and other PvP, so why bother changing the status quo this late.
                  • To change anything about class balance now, this late, would simply open the door for more (possibly bad) changes to classes and cause a torrent of people whining about this or that class for x or y reason without end, to the point where Webzen wouldn't know what to do with them (let's face it, the GMs barely know anything about actual gameplay) and make random shitty changes left and right.
                  Either of those would be suitable arguments and coincidentally capture how I feel about making any sort of class balance changes at his point. If they start, they'd have to do a complete overhaul of pretty much every class to actually achieve a somewhat balanced state of PvP. Meanwhile, whether 90% of the people play a BP or if every class has a balanced representation, either way the wcoins webzen makes are essentially the same, which are simply based on the fragment of players still clinging onto this game enough to actually bother to buy them.

                  It's kind of sad to see how other servers have a much more balanced and healthier PvP environment than the original, but I think it's just something we'll have to accept at this point.

                  Last edited by Nerve; 26-01-19, 08:05 PM.


                  • Hyaton
                    Hyaton commented
                    Editing a comment
                    You seem to be someone that isnt familiar with the *current* siege/pvp meta.
                    Yes, BPs *used* to be OP. As I explained before. But as it stands *right now*, bps are very far from OP.
                    Your points are based on the fact, that BPs were good *in the past*, but it's incorrect to conclude that therefore now, that they already experienced heavy relative nerfs and are very far from OP and very far from being the strongest class (Arcas wink wink), that they should be directly nerfed again.
                    Your other point, that BP is by far the most popular *PvP* class, is correct though. Yet this argument cant stand against a nerf imo. Obviously BP is the most trash class in PvM and noone at all ever plays a PvM - Billposter (except for a small bunch of masochists.)
                    It is also true that the current GMs (and almost all MODs) have not the slightest clue about actual gameplay, and any balance they propose are usually garbage. Since they have more say than us in these matters, it is better, as you said, to maintain the status quo and just hope that GMs dont mess up once again.

                  • Shaymin
                    Shaymin commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Hyaton The current pvp meta is unusable data, because its not a homogeneous but a heterogenous collection of people
                    with vast differences in equipment quality (some of them are actually just plain stupid players).
                    Taking the current meta as the basis for argumentation is the same as calculating the average annual income of a small village consisting of 9 people who earn something in between 3 to 7k per month and bill gates who earn(ed) multiple tens of millions per month
                    by using the arithmetic mean. It's flat out wrong.

                    The only right thing to do is to completly disregard the pvp meta of ANY server in this discussion or to look at a homogenous one which doesnt exist except in theory