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Regarding the recent discussions about PvP/Siege balancing of the classes

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  • Regarding the recent discussions about PvP/Siege balancing of the classes

    Hey everyone,

    recently and right now people are heavily debating over a 30% damage nerf to asal for bps and over implementing a speed cap. Most people, that support this, argue that BPs are too strong and need a nerf.

    I want to argue mostly against this.

    Let me first go through the meta history of BP strength on US servers. (It is a little different on d, fr and euFlyff, because they dont have all jewels).
    When Rudolph Set was introduced, BPs became the strongest class. With the Introduction of Eversnow Set arcanists and crackshooters caught up and were equally strong. With the introduction of the 2016 Angels Set, BPs once again became the single strongest class. With Introduction of Dinner Set, crackshooters caught up, and arcas were stil left behind a little bit. Introduction of Skeleton Cloak slightly buffed crackshooters and arcas, left BPs unchanged, almost equal strength. With Introduction of the new Dark Devils Cloak arcas and cracks yet again experienced a huge buff that BPs dont benefit from. The Introduction of R cards, especially Land R cards, buffed all tanks and cracks and arcas again. Leaving BPs unchanged, as there is no Wind R card.

    As of now, looking at all sieges of all the servers, Crackshooters and Arcanists and BPs seem to be able equally viable and strong. No need to nerf BP in particular.

    Applying a 30% damage nerf to asal would mean that even a well-geared full-str BP will not be able to kill the average Land R ranger anymore. not to mention any of those 2m HP tripple stacked siegers. Actually a 30% damage nerf would ruin BP as a viable siege class. You would have to have perfect equipment and be full str be even have a chance to stay competetive.

    A speed cap might make sense, if it is set to be close to the theoretical maximum, say 1000% speed, which can be obtained with close to perfect gear + all consumables + 200% speed artifact. Such a speed cap woud also prevent the common Cheat-Engine PropMover cheat, which boosts speed to whatever value you like. Even a 900% speed cap would be okay imo. But definitely not some 500,600,700 Speed cap, that would render almost any BPs gear useless and nerf BP to a point that it actually cannot be played anymore.

    The current strengths and weaknesses of the classes are as follows:

    BP: strongest skill in the game, potentially able to 1shot anything except those HP-card stacked Land R RMs/Knights.. sometimes Rangers. That spell comes with a 15sec cooldown though and BPs are absolutely useless in that time and can just hope to not die while not being able to do anything. Also that spell requires to be in melee range, which is a disadvantage over the other classes.

    CrackShooter: Insane Range and Damage, firing 50-80% worth of asal dmg 3x times per second without cooldown and without cast animation at insane Range. Can you DI and counterattack to become very elusive. Doesnt require Wind Cards due to insane Range, therefore able to use Land R cards to be super tanky or Damage cards to boost damage into ridiculous levels. Biggest weakness: Blockrate. Arrows can be blocked. Though obtaining good blockrate gear is very hard and requires sacrifices in gear to be made. In addition blockrate is capped. You cannot actually achieve 100% blockrate, such that even if someone made perfect block gear (like me for example, check out Quuton on tanuki server), you can and will still die. (Personally I achieve 96-109% ranged blockrate in siege, depending on what CS I use and on average I still die once per siege to a ranger.) I'd like to add that outrunning arrows isnt really a strong argument, as a BP on the run is never allowed to stop (not even for asal), mess up any movement, or swap to non-block gear during the time an arrow is chasing you. It is an argument, but only a very weak one. Especially since you need really good speed in order to even outrun arrows, I believe at least around 650% speed is what is needed.

  • #2
    Arcanists: Has a very very strong and fast AoE spell with a huuuge area of a effect, that can also stun with a high chance. Benefits a lot from full siegers with lower HP targets. In populated servers like Mocomochi right now for example, the name of the game is arcanist. Even the current MvP on a less populated server Tanuki is a badly geared arcanist. Outscoring all perfect gear BP's. Biggest weakness: Earth Suits and high HP targets. Arcas also have little survivability.

    As it stands right now, these 3 classes are about even in strength. Which class prevails depends mainly on the circumstances, the individual gears, the meta of that particular server and so on. I dont see any of those classes as much stronger or weaker than the others.
    Most importantly, super huge nerfs like the intended 30% asal nerf or speed cap, will ruin this pretty balanced relationship right now. In my opinion this really is not allowed to happen. Indirect nerfs to BPs have been applied by introduction of Skele/Dark Devils cloak and R-cards.

    So what really needs to happen?

    In FlyFF there are 8 classes. Not 3. While not every class has to be equally strong in PvP as every other class due to other aspects of the game like PvM, some classes really do need huge buffs.
    In particular YJs and Mentalists need som huuuuuge buffs to make them either both PvM but mainly PvP viable.
    One could also think about buffs to Knights and RMs, maybe to Blades. For example lower PvM max Blockrate a little bit and so on. The options are infinite.
    At this moment, I also wanna add in, that BPs are absolute garbage when it comes to PvM right now, such that nerfing their only strength PvP into the ground would just immediatly kill the class itsself.

    All in all, balancing does need to happen. But certainly not a 30% asal nerf or some speed cap. Really these other classes, especially Harlequins and Psykeepers need huge buffs.

    So please mister GMs and MODs, dont jump to any fast conclusions, it can kill the game in an instant.


    • #3
      I agree 100% with this. Doenst make any sense to nerf bps.


      • #4
        I did not read the full post but I believe that BPs should not be nerfed, what should be nerfed is the stackable cs. CS should only be stacked once, no matter whether they are soul linked or not. This can improve the game for every class. Now regarding balancing changes, I have to agree that the top 3 performing classes atm and for many years now are Bps, crackshooters and arcanists.

        I believe that Yjs and psykeepers should be given some level. Some balancing ratio changes to increase their dmg and their pvm + pvp potential would be necessary. For psykeepers bombs should be revived and for yoyo jesters i would suggest higher dmg and higher ranger since they are also a ranged class and their range is low.

        I really do hope they as they tried to fix the asal by decreasing its pvp dmg by 30% (which in effect does not even affected asal, the developers did not even check before implementing the change), i believe they could do it easily for Yjs and psykeepers, higher pvp dmg, higher range, higher travel time (for bombs for psys and for pandemoniums for jesters). Thats all from me x


        • #5
          I am pretty sure all BP players will complain about this thing because they upgraded their stuffs to aim High asal and remember back in a days the only thing that matter to BP players are to get their ASAL HIGHER than anyone? so if you will reduced the asal damage -30% it will affect the game really much. Imagine how many people balance they stats and awake/augged many things and topped up many wcoins to do enough damage to kill tanky people? about the speed cap 800-1k% speed is enough most of the BP's in any server change their stats to make speed lmfao. I wonder how they will be upset if it gets lower than what they aim before that is completely loled.

          I agree 1000% speed lightning with his thread.
          Peace out!


          • #6
            Agreed with everything. Before the siege powerups were introduced, the asal nerf would've been fine. However now that we have those, if you nerf asal the only viable build in siege will soon be full sta with 1hit rune xD. I'm pretty sure if a BP was level 170 with perfect sta gear, no one would be able to kill him with asal already.

            E: about the "speedcap": It's obvious that gala already tries to limit the amount of speed people have, e.g. by not printing wind R cards or new speed powerups. Setting a hard cap of anything less than ~1000 on it would just be unfair to those who put a lot of effort in getting as much speed as possible. What I suggest instead is increasing the projectile speed of all non-instant things, such as arrows, psy bombs, arcanist astral moon etc, to match with the crazy speeds we have today.
            Last edited by Sedu; 15-01-19, 11:57 AM.


            • #7
              alltho i am not really a seiger i dont believe bp need any nerfs the reasons for complaining are pretty simple what it boils down to is that people who want to beat extreemly geared bp's dont want to spend a few thousand making their own gear that big im guessing if you made a full tank mentalist with land R and whatever to maximize and spent a few thousand on it then you could easily compete with a full str asal bp in maxed gear the problem is bp has been so strong for a long time everyone says its not possible to beat them because they can 1 it anyone but the truth is anyone can 1 hit them also so gl and spend thousands if you want to be competative like all these people who invested in bilposters for the asal skill

              the answer to everyones problem is if they want to beat a bp spend as much money as they do


              • #8
                Oh Hyaton, it has been a while.

                Every single one of your arguments misses the entire concept of balance. You're talking about three incredibly bloated, incredibly overtuned classes, and saying that nerfing one is unacceptable because other classes are even more overtuned. That's an unhealthy approach to any game.

                The real point is that one of two things has to happen. Either the other classes should be buffed like crazy, or these three should be nerfed to their level. I'll be honest and say I haven't played much in the last few years, but it sounds like very little has changed in terms of class viability. Having only three viable damage classes, and completely discounting Mentalists, Harlequins, and Blades, is nonsense.

                Your argument for having such a high speed cap is just as, if not more silly. You talk about outrunning projectiles. That's a mentality that normalizes and frankly promotes broken gameplay. The entire reason why Mentalists are so utterly unusable is because they are projectile based, and encouraging a playstyle where both spirit bombs and arrows can be outrun only further nullifies the classes that aren't overtuned.

                The point is, you don't want to do a flat nerf on Asal, or at least not only do that. You want to hard cap ICD and block, drop asal damage by about 50%, drop its cooldown by 50%, put an internal cooldown of 3 seconds on Jar, nerf Arc damage, increase non-arrow projectile speeds (both Harle and Mentalist), and lower the movespeed cap to about 400-500% (thus removing a source of intentional pos glitching at the same time).

                Moral of the story? Don't just nerf one class cuz others are more broken. Bring everyone onto the same, or at least a similar level.


                • Err0neous
                  Err0neous commented
                  Editing a comment
                  So what you're talking about is still toxic balancing. The BP speed playstyle doesn't revolve around skill in movement (though that is part of the equation), but rather about exploiting latency. We all know pos lag is never, ever going to be fixed, but that doesn't change the fact that, much like seraphs with ress bugs, you're trying to balance through bugs.

                  Frankly, BPs are badly designed. They are absolutely synonymous with Asal at this point, a fact that you remember wasn't always the case. They have a remarkable amount of CC, and Sonic Hand is a skill with potential. Unfortunately, though, we've been in a 1HKO meta since the release of Jar. There will never be a situation where that can be balanced, at all, and even if a counter comes out it'll just turn into a tank meta (and that's always hellish).

                  Have all the classes meet halfway. Put an internal cooldown on Jar/Mantis, and lower damage to remove the concept of a 1HKO with whatever the current hp levels are at. Cap speed at 500%, buff Crucio on Mentalists to reflect ability damage, make Satanology 100%, put a slow debuff on Yoyo hits, and raise YJ/Mentalist damage. YJ is the archetypal assassin, if anyone should have nuke damage it's them. Cracks just have no reason to be doing ranged asals, they're a dps class and should act like it (like Blades).

                  New moral of this story? HP pools aren't the problem when you talk about immortality, the problem is sustain options with no counterplay other than 1hkos.

                  PS: Did ya miss me, axypooh? <3

                • Hyaton
                  Hyaton commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Err0neous While one half of the changes you mention is good, the other half would instantly ruin and kill the entire game.
                  Frankly, it is an MMO where people already have invested thousands of dollars into. You cannot nerf their classes. You can only buff the other classes. Thats just how it is. Also the only classes that really need a buff are YJs and mentalists. The other non-siege-dominant classes are op at leveling and farming. So they already have their role in the game named FlyFF.

                  I think most of your input stems from the fact that you are not familiar with the current siege meta.

                • Err0neous
                  Err0neous commented
                  Editing a comment
                  It's true that you can't (read: shouldn't) do straight, large scale nerfs in a vacuum. The way it's traditionally done in the industry is to use power creep to buff everyone but buff some classes significantly less than others. We've seen this pretty much every expansion in every game since forever. Remember back in like v13ish when Rangers and Eles were considered absolute dogshit at everything but leveling? They've barely touched BPs directly since, well, ever, so they've been buffing the crap out of the other classes.

                  When I talk about nerfing damage, let's reframe it in the context of power creep. I honest to god don't know what the current hp/damage standards are, but it's sounding like 800k hp and ~400-800k damage is a reasonable average. Even if I'm off by a bit, whatever, doesn't matter. Let's say we get v22, or whatever the next big update is. Z cards or whatever come out, everyone gets a new skill, there's some new set that's decidedly better than what's out right now. This new update provides gear that power creeps us up to a standard of ~3m hp and 1-2m damage. They buff all the non-asal skills, so BPs aren't complete shit, but they don't add much in the way of mana options and they buff hp so asal is no longer a 1hko (just cuz everyone is so tanky). They buff sonic hand, they buff stonehand, they buff all these other things, but asal, though not nerfed, is no longer as potent due to the context. Meanwhile, everyone else gets buffed like crazy (add the things to Mentalist and Harle).

                  So buff everyone, just buff certain classes significantly less than others. And items (specifically things like Jar) can absolutely be nerfed between versions. There's no reason not to add a 2 second cooldown to Jar, even while potentially increasing the hp that can be stored in it.

              • #9
                my opinion people may not agree with but its very simple if others put the money into gear/ equips that bp's do they can be on par with that class weather its by surviving assal using all R cards on shields for max hp/stam to survive or its some other mechanic that the class takes advantage of such as speed aoe attacks to kill bps before they can get close enough to actually cast asal the real problem here is people dont want to invest like that into other classes because bp has been on top for a while and why would you invest money like that into another class when you could invest it into a bp/forcemaster.

                my idea isn't to make bp's worse but generally encourage people to invest in other classes built right (just like people have figured out for assal bp) any class has the chance to be amazing. you just have to figure it out and its gonna cost money just like asal bp's cost to make decent