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Guild Siege rules: Statue hiding, we need your opinions

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  • Guild Siege rules: Statue hiding, we need your opinions

    Hello Siegers,

    Today I am opening this topic to discuss Guild Siege rules. While bug abuses are strictly forbidden, some practices aren't always black or white. Characters can hide in the statue of the Guild Siege map using a specific path. When they do, the obstacle blocks incoming attacks, not only making the player invulnerable but also unable to move out and attack, except with area-of-effect skills.

    After a lot of considerations, we thought it would be a good idea to ask the community what they think about this practice.

    To give your opinion, please leave a reply to this topic with the following elements:
    -How often do you play in Guild Siege?
    -What class do you play in Guild Siege?
    -Do you think the ability to hide in the statue benefits the game? Justify your answer.
    -Do you think hiding in the statue should be considered as a bug abuse, and therefore be forbidden? Justify your answer.

    Thanks for your collaboration. Your answer will strongly influence our ruling on the matter.

    Kind regards,
    Your Flyff team

  • #2
    Let it be.
    ~ The realest.

    Comment


    • #3
      Let the statues be please.

      Comment


      • #4
        Finally webzen does something about this statue camping.

        How often do you play in Guild Siege? Ive sieged every week since 2007

        What class do you play in Guild Siege? BP and crackshooter

        Do you think the ability to hide in the statue benefits the game? The statues do nothing other than allow people to camp in siege. If you look at alot of siege POVs you will see arcs with 1hit rune sitting in statue with bankpang summoned and other pets so they cant be targeted. That defeats the whole idea of siege. People are too affraid to jump in because 1hit rune is unpredictable, which then leaves you sitting in siege for 20mins til they decide to come out.

        Do you think hiding in the statue should be considered as a bug abuse, and therefore be forbidden? Statue hiding is a bug and always has been one but no one cared to enforce the rules for it. In my opinion do what other servers do and that is remove the statues completely.

        Also with the statue rule, you really need to patch the asal nerf bug which you guys said they would be nerfed 30% but instead my asal increased more than it was before. I'm a bp main and I think billposters are too overpowered with hp and 1hit asal.

        Comment


        • Hyaton
          Hyaton commented
          Editing a comment
          Shaymin You are wrong. HP nowadays exceeds 2million easily. I am personally well geared, and pure str. I asal 1m. Proof video here with H-window recorded at the start of the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmMdkNuLdq0

          Idk what stuff youre smoking, but full sta BPs never asal 1.2m, idk where that comes from. that only works if you get rid of speed gear, but then you cant catch anyone anymore.

          Also it seems you assume perfect gear. like noone has perfect gear, and also non-perfect landR gear tanks it easily. HP actually is so crazy it almost tanks HC'ed asals lol.

        • Shaymin
          Shaymin commented
          Editing a comment
          Hyaton
          It's way too tiring to talk to you about that with your flawed argumentation and narrow point of view, so this will be my last answer.
          I know the numbers. I've crunched them more than once by now and nothing, absolutly nothing made me even question whether asal is actually overpowered or not. (Which got confirmed countless times during the past 10 years I am activly following global flyffs pvp scene)
          If you want something > anything < to die in flyff pvp, then Asal will do that for you, no matter how much HP your opponent has.
          And the so called "disadvantage" you mentioned is no disadvantage at all and has proven to be the superior alternative to the otherwise
          luck dependend RNG festival called blockrate.

          (Just question yourself, why are blades so little played, when they have the highest critdmg of all classes, if being able
          to attack the whole time is better than having a 15sec cooldown?)

          Classes like crackshooter or arcanist can only score their points 'cuz of bad players (skill and/or equipment wise).
          A very good equiped arcanist doesnt even do 1/2 often times not even 1/3rd of a simillar good equiped opponents HP. and at that point a kill for the arcanist is the result of misbehavior of the opponent.

          The same goes for crackshooter. They have the lowest damage of all classes that are actually meant to deal critical hits.
          But I've seen far too many people opting for stat point beads (STR/INT/STA/DEX +7) instead of a rangeblock +7% one.
          Crackshooter in pvp are nothing more than a bubble that will burst once people stack rangeblock.

          As long as people dont thrive for the most optimal behavioir, the most rational equipment and powerups,
          arcanists and crackshooter will have a place in pvp.
          But from the moment people DO optimize their strategie and choice of equipment, all boils down to a pvp environment where nothing but BP is viable as an offensive class.
          Last edited by Shaymin; 06-02-19, 11:54 PM.

        • Hyaton
          Hyaton commented
          Editing a comment
          i agree that IF everyone has a tanky +20 earth player with max blockrates, then yea nothing but BPs (and 1hit rune arcas) can kill them. but siege has never been like htat and will never be like that, theres always ppl with differnet setups, lower hps, lower blockrates and so on.
          you describe a strategy that counters arcas and rangers, you are 100% correct, that strategy does exactly this, i personally follow this exact setup. but most ppl dont and wont, mostly because theyd rather invest everyting in speed or more dmg or other stuff than ranged block to be better vs other bps, as ranged block does nothing vs bps.
          so i dont see why the circumstance, that would counter all arcas and rangers, would ever occur, hence i dont think they will become bad, once ppl gitGud.

      • #5
        -How often do you play in Guild Siege?
        Almost weekly

        -What class do you play in Guild Siege?
        BP

        -Do you think the ability to hide in the statue benefits the game? Justify your answer.
        -Do you think hiding in the statue should be considered as a bug abuse, and therefore be forbidden? Justify your answer.
        Yes, the ability to use the statues gives siege a competetive edge and more of a gameplay for every class. Without the statues it would just be a kill fiesta, and would make siege even shorter than it is. I dont think it should be forbidden or considered as a bug abuse.

        Comment


        • #6
          Keep them. Just brings another element to the gameplay, nothing negative about them. If something remove the big ass thing from the middle

          Comment


          • #7
            I siege on a regular basis (BP) and I strongly believe statues are one of the few things that requires a degree of technical skills. It is not the hardest thing to enter a statue but it still requires some practice, which is good because nothing should be too easy.

            What makes statues so good is that siegers with limited gear has the opportunity to go somewhere for "safety". At the same time, they will be the most vulnerable there (since it is too late to escape when your enemy has entered the the same statue) but at least they had to outsmart/read your play in order to kill you, not simply just rely on superior gear. So it's pretty much a high-risk, high reward situation. Whereas a siege without statues is a high risk, no reward scenario xD

            Sure, I may be a little biased since I play the class that uses staues the most. However, Bp's can only rely on getting a kill (at most) every 15 seconds and are completely useless in between asals. The statue feature together with your overall movement is the only thing that can keep you alive during this time. I think removing statues will turn siege into an even more Pay2Win game because it will all be about "who can get the most hp", "who can get the most dmg", "who can get the most speed" etc... Anyways, that's just my opinion!

            Cheers peeps

            Comment


            • PlatiniFricky
              PlatiniFricky commented
              Editing a comment
              I agree completely with this!

          • #8
            Very nice post Klaig and thank you for taking some time to consider this.

            There are more bugs in the siege that should be fixed instead of the one you mention above:
            1. Being bugged after death -> waste your lives unless someone ress u. This is a bug that should be fixed years ago.
            2. Siege sign up of inactive guilds just to farm the siege coins. Some consideration shall be placed on this also, as many guilds kick the main siege guilds out of siege sign up last second not allowing them to the siege.

            And now back to your topic:


            -How often do you play in Guild Siege? I was an active sieger in the past (weekly), now once per month, maybe less.
            -What class do you play in Guild Siege? Harlequin
            -Do you think the ability to hide in the statue benefits the game? I believe it does not benefit the game at all. It should be removed, siege is to be there and have a siege arena. Having arcanists making a deadly spot right where we enter and instantly die it's not fair and not fun for all us. Of course it can benefit everyone, but I believe the fact that we cannot atk the people behind the statue is unfair. In my opinion, it shall be completely removed.

            -Do you think hiding in the statue should be considered as a bug abuse, and therefore be forbidden? Justify your answer. It is your game, it should not be considered as bug abuse since that is how you or gala (not my issue) developed it. Therefore, people use and play the game the way developers developed it, so I don't believe it is correct to bank people for using the game features that you created.

            I will give you an example: I may target the people I want to kill, however, I cannot kill him because he hides behind statues. Once my char follows him because I targeted him, the char autoruns close to the statues where also arcanists are hiding and I die because even if i don't want to I get in arcanists range (due to my char following the target who hides). The point is that the statues should be completely removed, so everyone is open to kill and be killed.

            Also, I ready some of the comments above and I believe they are valid:
            1. Remove the middle obstacle, it is very annoying
            2. Make tab more useful so it changes targets (we cannot click manually with all the movement speed you have implemented)
            3. Either nerf asal OR buff other classes that need it. Since you could "nerf 30% asal" even if it failed, it means that you can easily buff other classes.
            4. Same Consumables can be stacked 3 times ( FWC cards and other). Please FIX this ASAP (but this needs to be fixed once asal is nerfed, because if you nerf asal and dont fix this, then nobody will be able to kill high hp targets - I consider this more of an issue than the ASAL damage).

            Hope all the above will be taken into consideration, to make siege a bit more fair for every class and not only BPs, Rangers and Arcanists.

            Once again, thank you Klaig.

            Comment


            • #9
              Hello,

              I have skipped barely any sieges since 2013, competed in almost every single one since then. I used to play Arcanists, Crackshooter sometimes, and Seraph sometimes, nowadays i main at BP.

              First and foremost, it is very(!) important to keep statues as they are and not consider it cheating to enter them. Here are the reasons:

              Klaig, you claim character inside a statue are "invulnerable". This is simply false, camping a statue is the fastest way to die to any decent-ish players. Any player/character can get into a statue very easily, making you actually super vulnerable if your competitors are anywhere of even half-decent skill. Not to mention youll still get hit by random arcanists and all. A wonderful demonstration of this are the Guild Siege PoVs of Axeell/Jozper and SerPoe, who keep farming people that camp statues. Personally I do it a lot too. Easiest kill ever: some Arcanist camping a statue, free and easy kills. AFKing inside a statue is actually so bad, that doing this, usually, auto-loses you a siege.
              Additionally, it is completely FALSE, that you cannot get attacked inside a statue from outside. There are various angles from where people can use long-ranged auto attacks or spells to attack characters camping a statue. Not to mention, even melee classes can attack the insides of a statue from outside by pressing X and getting close enough from outside. 1v1 Knight masterme on Tanuki server does only one thing in siege: Kill afk-bps and arcas inside statues. No problem at all. Simply put: statues are FAR from granting invulnerability.

              I admit there are servers, like mocomochi right now, where some arcanists camp stautes with 1hit rune. Personally I have sieged years of Arcanists and 1hit rune arcanists. The 1hit-chance is abysmally small. Absolutely not viable not using target spell waterballs. Unfortunately many of the current moco siegers, espeically the well-geared BPs, are not skilled enough yet to just enter the statue and kill the arcanists, which is actually, very very easy. So that shouldnt count here.

              So why do people camp stautes sometimes? Well mostly because they are bad. Whoever literally AFKs in a statue is just a bad sieger. It is a horrendously bad strategy. It used to be good before people became skilled enough to consistently enter statues from any angle. Nowadays it is just bad.

              So how can statues be used in "good" ways? The way to go right now is, you enter, and leave again immediately. Anything else is suicide. Any youtube channel of a decently skilled player shows this.

              Should statues entering statues be prevented? Absolutely not! They add one (and possibly even the only) layer of skill to sieging. As SerPoe already mentioned, without stautes it is impossible to prevent your death unless you just outgear everyone else. It would make siege a thing that only people that have spent over 10k usd on this game can even participate in. Noone else will ever have a chance and CAN ever have a chance. It would remove the only theoretical way to get better results by being a more skilled player.

              To repeat myself once more: Entering statue does not make you invulnerable. It protects you against the scenario that xSlyth described above. If a player, BP, Jester, Seraph or whatever just closes his eyes and pressed F1 on you and just blindly chases you, yes, that person will often not get their spell of. For good reason. Any no-scope afk-blind chases should absolutely not lead to killing or succesfully getting their spell of. Instead those people shoudl enter the statue, just like their target did, and enjoy the free kill. Whoever is not skilled enough to do it, shouldnt get the kill.

              Comment


              • #10
                More importantly, I am wondering, Klaig. How in the world does this discussion even come up? There is fake-afk guild problem, which prevents actual siegers from even participating LOL, there is a disconnect hack on moco server, that just disconnects people during siege, losing all their lives. There is dupe that makes peopel get impossible HP/DMG ratios, there is beadstack and so much stuff that fucks over siege. (In that sense, note that BPs are defintiely not overpowered and a 30% asal nerf would ruin the class immediately, dont even consider it.)
                How did it happen that you come up with this suggestion now? How about you monitor siege and dont let non-sieging guilds enter? How about you check for beadstack during siege? how about you fix cheat-engine + propmover usage?
                Instead of trying to fix the ACTUAL issues siege has right now (all teh hacks/cheats and exploits), you suggest to remove the only layer of skill the game even has? And make sure that any 1-year old that has duped speed equipment, can press the asal-button, close his eyes, and a kill on anyone? really klaig?

                Anyways, I really do hope, Klaig, that this is a joke. On the one hand Mod/GMs claim that they are unable to fix the insane hacks and bugs that are currently being used because they are "busy with merge". Yet you use your supposedly precious "merge"-time to suggest a way to ruin the game? I am utterly disappointed that you are actually THIS unknowledgeble about the game :/
                Sad to say, but leave Siege to those people that know about it. and that is, again sad to say, neither of the GMs, they dont know much about the game.

                (If wanted, me and many other serious full-time siegers can provide proof of any of above statements and elaborate in great detail what is good or bad. Myself and other siegers can also comment on the current meta and Tierlist of classes.)

                In that sense, unless your goal is to ruin the game faster than any hackers can do it, leave statues as they are. Best regards.

                Comment


                • Klaig
                  Klaig commented
                  Editing a comment
                  "On the one hand Mod/GMs claim that they are unable to fix the insane hacks and bugs that are currently being used because they are "busy with merge". Yet you use your supposedly precious "merge"-time to suggest a way to ruin the game?"

                  Webzen has no developer dedicated to Flyff development, Webzen is only the publisher. What we are doing right now is only about ruling, so what we are doing here has no impact what so ever on how fast bugs are being fixed and how fast merge is going to happen.

                  "but leave Siege to those people that know about it. "

                  This is precisely why I am writing this topic, so siegers can express their opinion on the matter. But keep in mind that Flyff US is not the only market, for example French siegers which are as good as you would like this practice to be forbidden.

                • Hyaton
                  Hyaton commented
                  Editing a comment
                  well, i dont know too much who is responsible for what in webzen, but if mods/gms are responsible to rule whats bugabuse and whats not and to ban/suspend people accoridngly, i would argue a much better use of your time is to e.g monitor siege and suspend the guildlead of all those guilds that apply but dont enter OR apply and just afk inside. I think everyone agrees that this is not how its supposed to be and ppl would agree to rule this a bug-abuse or sth.

                  I do very much appreciate that you ask before randomly judging staute jumping a bug or not, even though i am still very much wondering how in the world did it happen, that this matter even came up now?

              • #11
                -How often do you play in Guild Siege? : Allmost weekly

                -What class do you play in Guild Siege? : Primarily BP but sometimes Arcanist and Crackshooter aswell.

                -Do you think the ability to hide in the statue benefits the game?: I think statue hiding makes seige more interesting as its a bit of a safe zone for the one hiding inside but by no means is it fool proof as thanks to server latency if someone else jumps inside and attacks you there is very little you can do once they actually started to attack you. jumping inside statues and managing to move around all obstacles in seige is something one learns very quickly with practice so it really is not a big deal and removing them completelly would just make seige more dull in general.

                -Do you think hiding in the statue should be considered as a bug abuse, and therefore be forbidden?: I don't think it should be considered a bug as I personally don't mind when opponents jump inside statues and I do think there are other bugs / exploits or just things in general that should be a higher priority of things to tweak, some have been listed already in other posts.

                Conclusion: I do not think statues should be removed, i like the seige arena the way it is and neither do i consider it an exploit to jump inside statue.

                Comment


                • #12
                  100% agree with the majority of posters above, dont remove statues, they are integral to the fun of the game. removing statues would make official siege just as bad as p-server siege. (except pservers fixed ressbug already!!!!)
                  stautes are the only reason official is better than pserver, if you remove it, it makes official worse than pserver.

                  to all ppl that want statues removed: most of you dont even siege often to be able to have a good opinion OR they are simply too bad to use stautes and rather render all skilled siegers cheaters than to become good themselves. please change your attitude folks, its not cool.

                  Comment


                  • #13
                    -How often do you play in Guild Siege?
                    Once a week.

                    -What class do you play in Guild Siege?
                    BP/FM, whatever you want to call it. :P

                    -Do you think the ability to hide in the statue benefits the game? Justify your answer.
                    I really think it does, I've been playing this game for so long and you just adapt to it, I've never known it as any different till one day some guy started to jump into statues, it gives the edge as SerPoe mentioned in his earlier post, it's meta and people love it.

                    -Do you think hiding in the statue should be considered as a bug abuse, and therefore be forbidden? Justify your answer.
                    Let's be real, it isn't a bug it's always been there just like alot of things in the game I don't even know why this came to light.


                    Summarising: As pointed out in the previous posts by Slyth and also Hyaton there are much bigger issues which have been araised and I understand YOU as Webzen don't apply 'bug' fixes that's down to GALA so then why has this become a concern over many others which have already been expressed?, I know this whole 'merge' has take priority which is cool, but you have ress bugs which has been in the game since I've ever known it, the fake guilds applying to guild siege which go for max bid prevent people whom want to participate. #LetsAddRestrictions.
                    Last edited by GxBRage; 06-02-19, 09:13 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #14
                      -How often do you play in Guild Siege?
                      About 80+% of the sieges since 2013
                      -What class do you play in Guild Siege:
                      Mainly BP, but Ive played Ranger and Arcanist

                      My thoughts are summoned in this little podcast I made to try and reach out to more siegers
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8ZG...ature=youtu.be
                      __________________________________________________
                      Axeell ~ Murano ~ Tanuki ~ Lv150 Dankmeister
                      Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/iPredHD
                      'Who is Axeell' - Flyff Montage:
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbx-H9FGq5s


                      "
                      Ez gem, ez lyfe" - J0zper 4k20

                      Comment


                      • #15
                        How often do you play in Guild Siege? I use to do it every week.
                        -What class do you play in Guild Siege? ForceMaster
                        -Do you think the ability to hide in the statue benefits the game? Justify your answer. No, cause siege is a 5-10min brawl and anything that short of time can't benefit anything at most its a nice distraction.
                        -Do you think hiding in the statue should be considered as a bug abuse, and therefore be forbidden? Justify your answer. I don't think its a bug but a glitch in which the people who made the game didn't intend for it to be used as it is and glitch exploiting is just as bad. However any of this is just speculations on weather its good or bad since we are players we can't really say if its a bug or a glitch since we don't know what was intended. It not as cut and dry type of situation where a skill doesn't work or a quest doesn't work type bug to where we as players can identify. In the end removing it or keeping it won't really change much of the game as siege is a 5-10min brawl that happens 1 time a week nothing that short in time can benefit the game much.
                        Last edited by Moribito; 06-02-19, 10:57 PM.

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