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[Suggestion] General PVP Rebalance

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  • [Suggestion] General PVP Rebalance

    Firstly, I appreciate WEBZEN's effort in working on community suggestions by adding Skill Presets. This will help a lot of players especially PVP'ers to enjoy both PVP and PVE. However, the imbalance issue still exists due to the fact that PVP is still Pay to Win rather than Skill to Win. I know you want to gain money from both PVP and PVE. But what is the use of making it that way when it enrages the majority of players. PVP is dead because of that. Lag is another issue and it's common in every game.

    But Pay to Win is the number 1 reason for players to quit not only PVP, but the game as a whole. PVP is considered a complementary part of the game. PVE is where people should actually spend a lot of money and players don't rage when Pay to Win comes to PVE as much as it affects PVP. Every Free 2 Play game has Pay 2 Win element, and it is fine to have it in PVE as long as it doesn't also greatly affect non paying customers who help paying customers by providing them with stuff in exchange for cash shop items. Would be even great and profitable if currency exchange adopted as this will solve the issue of Pay 2 Win. We know that Magic Primers, Pets, Unique accessories, etc are cash shop exclusive items.

    What I want to suggest here is to remove the use of player-obtained equipment, and make PVP skill based using only default equipment. Player-obtained equipment should be only used in PVE AND intrusion. You will, however, need some modifications:

    1- Add unique PVP skill preset: This PVP skill preset will have additional 'Passive' stats that include but not limited to critical damage, player resist, cooldown reduction, damage reduction and the like. Also, the cost of Skill Points should be different from PVE skill preset. With this system, I'm sure PVP imbalance will be easy to solve. Because equipment greatly affects PVP and it is confusing to solve PVP when the issue is mixed with equipment.

    2- Improve intrusion rewarding system: PVP players need to enjoy using their overpowered equipment through intrusion system. The current intrusion system lacks the essence of encouraging players to use because of the imbalanced risk-benefit ratio. Intruders don't get noticeable benefits from intruding others because the rewards are near useless. On the other hand, players prefer to disable intrusion because the risk that comes from it outweighs its benefit. I know there's 25% increase to EXP but that's not enough especially if a player is at max level. So, to encourage players to enable intrusion, you also need to add better rewards that are very useful for end game players, PVP'ers and PVE'ers alike.

    These suggestions will add more enjoyment and greatly solve Pay 2 Win issues. I care about this game as much as you care about gaining profits consistently from this game.

    Before any player comments below by saying the game is dead or anything similar to this. Well, the game hasn't been closed yet. So, kindly keep your negative comments aside.

    Thank you

  • #2
    Blood/Aegis/Duel tokens really do need better rewards, it's laughable to give element shards and some weak potions to lv67 players.

    Comment


    • JoJoestar
      JoJoestar commented
      Editing a comment
      +1 ppl needs to use it, i feel i wasted all my tokens on that crap of 3 leave clovers

  • #3
    +1. And to sidetrack a bit on balance...

    Everybody now has the ability to become way tankier than a Guardian right now in PvP. And they move way faster than my class ever can. It's getting ridiculous because this class lost its sole advantage it had over the other classes at lv50 cap.

    May I also suggest to fix the 2 most buggy skill for Guardians while Webzen is at it too?

    1) Shield Reflection: Opponents who are hit by this skill just disappear and there's no way to follow up properly even though you landed the stun.

    2) Grab Spike: Opponents are able to use ground evasive or evasive dash out of the 3 grab combo. Not sure about what bugs other classes have but these bugs are way overdue and more than enough to change an obvious win into an unexpected loss. Guardians are not as powerful as people think they are and I feel they deserve a remake/fix just as much as Warriors have experienced.

    Comment


    • #4
      +1 Also, I think they should make stamina consumption reduced by 50% and EXP bonus increased to 100%. This will make many players very greedy to enable intrusion. Maybe they can also increase the chance of getting better loot, dimensional fissure bosses spawn rate, amount of gold looted. I mean all of these will make intrusion more fun for both owners of dungeons and intruders. Intruders should also gain EXP by killing mobs as well as dungeon owners. Intruders who conquer a dungeon gain a bonus reward. There are many ways to improve intrusion system and its rewards.

      Comment


      • #5
        Originally posted by Furholden View Post
        +1. And to sidetrack a bit on balance...

        Everybody now has the ability to become way tankier than a Guardian right now in PvP. And they move way faster than my class ever can. It's getting ridiculous because this class lost its sole advantage it had over the other classes at lv50 cap.

        May I also suggest to fix the 2 most buggy skill for Guardians while Webzen is at it too?

        1) Shield Reflection: Opponents who are hit by this skill just disappear and there's no way to follow up properly even though you landed the stun.

        2) Grab Spike: Opponents are able to use ground evasive or evasive dash out of the 3 grab combo. Not sure about what bugs other classes have but these bugs are way overdue and more than enough to change an obvious win into an unexpected loss. Guardians are not as powerful as people think they are and I feel they deserve a remake/fix just as much as Warriors have experienced.
        Guardian can still be incredibly tanky .. you guys on sea just have to use crit res.
        Shield reflection is indeed very buggy but I would prefer to keep the way it is now since you can easily reset combo afterwards with grab.
        Grabspike is indeed stupid, sadly that already happened in korean server.
        However, in korean server it was intended due to faster getup, here it isn't.

        Comment


        • Trainedguardianeyes
          Editing a comment
          The point is that aside from ele and illu nobody can be THAT tanky.
          Guardian can have up to 16k+ pdef which is unrivaled.
          Warrior and guardian can also have the craziest mdef in the game.

        • Furholden
          Furholden commented
          Editing a comment
          Thing is even if Guardian can be the tankiest in the game aside from illu and ele, just about everyone deals way more damage. And the margin isn't big to begin with.

          The only remaining other Guardian in SEA, Raiders, has reset his Guardian just to do PvE as he sees no point in its prospect in PvP.

          The main thing is that this class has lost its primary advantage and unique qualities about the class. The effort required to win with this class just isn't worth it anymore. But that's just my two cents from SEA. I'm sure the others shared the same opinion while they were active as the other 3 fully-geared Guardians broke all their items and quit the game out of frustration.

        • Trainedguardianeyes
          Editing a comment
          I would say the bleeding %phys attack necklace is mandatory to compete in terms of damage too.
          And of course hellflare, but I doubt I need to mention it at this point, zeno is completely useless for damage.
          Guardian just has far higher gear requirements than any other class right now and in a way it's true, it is not really worth it anymore.
          If you give a warrior all that op guardian gear he will do far better probably.

          Glad you guys see the weaknesses of guardian as well though, evil witchblade card players on EU were still saying that guardian should be considered god tier

      • #6
        That's hilarious that you're mostly concerned about gear imbalance and not class imbalance in general...I've been off the game for 4 months, just check in on the main page and the forums to see what's new and the only thing they have done in 4 months is make it worse...this is a PVE game now, Pvp is a joke

        Comment


        • #7
          Originally posted by KingNaSty View Post
          That's hilarious that you're mostly concerned about gear imbalance and not class imbalance in general...I've been off the game for 4 months, just check in on the main page and the forums to see what's new and the only thing they have done in 4 months is make it worse...this is a PVE game now, Pvp is a joke
          ​This is the first step to start balancing PVP. Feedback given by players is quite biased due to the fact that gears have some effect on that. I forgot to mention that auspices and legends should also be disabled in PVP too. Once it is done, they can work on extensive class rebalance. I'm very aware that playing Warrior vs Warrior is not like playing Warrior against Scout.

          So, basically, what I'm trying to say here is to remove elements that create bias in PVP e.g. gears, auspices, soul sets, etc. and then rebalance classes skills. The latter is not very easy to be implemented perfectly.

          Comment


          • #8
            Kind of disappointed to see that Skill Preset Expansion Scroll is a cash shop item and it is sold for a ridiculously high price (5100 Wcoins) for each Skill Preset Expansion . I don't think this will attract/bring back more players to the game.

            Comment


            • JoJoestar
              JoJoestar commented
              Editing a comment
              Exactly! if they want to bring ppl to the game that's the worst way possible
              The skill presets are a great idea but badly implemented

          • #9
            Originally posted by Mikhail View Post
            Kind of disappointed to see that Skill Preset Expansion Scroll is a cash shop item and it is sold for a ridiculously high price (5100 Wcoins) for each Skill Preset Expansion . I don't think this will attract/bring back more players to the game.
            LOL that make my day ... Did you think that potatozen will Give that for free???? Nothing that will be really good for players in this game will be for free NOTHING. they are just trying the milk the last €€€€ from the players...

            And i can say more the game has no GM or even Dev´s working on it "change colors on gear its not a update "... we need to face-it the game is dying each day faster and faster potatozen now is focus on ELOA and ASTA. Will be just a mather off time to hapend to C9 the same fate of S.U.N / Artic. Combat and Archlord ETC....

            Comment


            • #10
              Originally posted by Mikhail View Post
              Kind of disappointed to see that Skill Preset Expansion Scroll is a cash shop item and it is sold for a ridiculously high price (5100 Wcoins) for each Skill Preset Expansion . I don't think this will attract/bring back more players to the game.
              I lol'd so hard when I saw the price of it. I immediately logged off after checking if something new was added and saw that a single skill preset is being literally sold for $50. In BnS, it's sold way cheaper. But you don't actually need it because you can change your build without spending a penny. Skill Pages are only meant to swap skill builds instantly instead of redistributing skill points. So, good job WEBZEN for making players life miserable in C9. XD

              Comment


              • JoJoestar
                JoJoestar commented
                Editing a comment
                even when B&S may just give u 2 slots for chars, that skill build thing there is cheap and good

            • #11
              Originally posted by KingNaSty View Post
              this is a PVE game now, Pvp is a joke
              You mean this is PvE since always, right? In theory, you need some PvE first before the PvP gets good. It's idiotic to think otherwise. But yes, no denying PvP has been getting worse.

              P.S.: Also, yes, BnS allowing you to redistribute skill points at will when you're outside combat is vastly superior to what C9 does. No Skill Reset Scroll and the like required. Just swap points when needed and you're done. No need to spend money on something basic. Really, that reason alone would be good enough to make people jump ships.

              Comment


              • #12
                Originally posted by Mikhail View Post
                Firstly, I appreciate WEBZEN's effort in working on community suggestions by adding Skill Presets. This will help a lot of players especially PVP'ers to enjoy both PVP and PVE. However, the imbalance issue still exists due to the fact that PVP is still Pay to Win rather than Skill to Win. I know you want to gain money from both PVP and PVE. But what is the use of making it that way when it enrages the majority of players. PVP is dead because of that. Lag is another issue and it's common in every game.

                But Pay to Win is the number 1 reason for players to quit not only PVP, but the game as a whole. PVP is considered a complementary part of the game. PVE is where people should actually spend a lot of money and players don't rage when Pay to Win comes to PVE as much as it affects PVP. Every Free 2 Play game has Pay 2 Win element, and it is fine to have it in PVE as long as it doesn't also greatly affect non paying customers who help paying customers by providing them with stuff in exchange for cash shop items. Would be even great and profitable if currency exchange adopted as this will solve the issue of Pay 2 Win. We know that Magic Primers, Pets, Unique accessories, etc are cash shop exclusive items.

                What I want to suggest here is to remove the use of player-obtained equipment, and make PVP skill based using only default equipment. Player-obtained equipment should be only used in PVE AND intrusion. You will, however, need some modifications:

                1- Add unique PVP skill preset: This PVP skill preset will have additional 'Passive' stats that include but not limited to critical damage, player resist, cooldown reduction, damage reduction and the like. Also, the cost of Skill Points should be different from PVE skill preset. With this system, I'm sure PVP imbalance will be easy to solve. Because equipment greatly affects PVP and it is confusing to solve PVP when the issue is mixed with equipment.

                2- Improve intrusion rewarding system: PVP players need to enjoy using their overpowered equipment through intrusion system. The current intrusion system lacks the essence of encouraging players to use because of the imbalanced risk-benefit ratio. Intruders don't get noticeable benefits from intruding others because the rewards are near useless. On the other hand, players prefer to disable intrusion because the risk that comes from it outweighs its benefit. I know there's 25% increase to EXP but that's not enough especially if a player is at max level. So, to encourage players to enable intrusion, you also need to add better rewards that are very useful for end game players, PVP'ers and PVE'ers alike.

                These suggestions will add more enjoyment and greatly solve Pay 2 Win issues. I care about this game as much as you care about gaining profits consistently from this game.

                Before any player comments below by saying the game is dead or anything similar to this. Well, the game hasn't been closed yet. So, kindly keep your negative comments aside.

                Thank you


                I totally agree with u coz im pvp player too and i know u feel.This game was become P2W when NEW Item like resist come out.At first place i also happy coz if u have that resist sure easy to win in arena but after long time use to it...it become bored coz ppl need to depend on skill not the item to win.I have 4 character lvl67 and when come to pvp it become bored coz this item resist have been used at high lvl...so i made low lvl characterf for pvp like lvl35-lvl47 and it also fun coz at that low lvl was not have resist item.I dont even care about losing the game but the fun of game what u looking for,right??When u not depend on resist,u become more carefully on every skill but when resist...for me,when i get combo by others players.i have high resist and not problem for me just let he combo me and wait me to drop without using dash.For me item in arena can change the issue of P2W.C9 was good game ever for pvp and pve of gameplay even many new game out there.Webzen just need give liltle bit attention and care

                Comment


                • #13
                  How about practicemore2win? I can see many players makes excuses such as pay2win but in Sea it was never the case, "Did you guys honestly and truly believe that you are a better player than those who have better items than you? For you to complain that its pay2win?"

                  Look, those players who have better items than you spent 3 years investing in this game, farming non-stop. What did you do for the last 3 years?

                  Cash user? It's not like he stole his money for you to be complaining pay2win, Or bash a Cash user. He earned it with hard work, You dont have cash? answer is farm gold. Without those Cash users, This game will not be running in the first place. Please do not forget, You are playing for free, And this game is a business.
                  And This game is very fair in my point of view.

                  If you have no time for farming "use cash" support the game and keep it running.

                  If you have a lot of time in your hands and feel bad about spending money in just a "Game or so they say" , "Farm gold" work hard.

                  No money? No time?
                  #Practicemore2win

                  Here in Sea I can see a lot of players who can own fully equipped players at lvl 67 which proves that the claim C9 is pay2win is invalid.
                  Example
                  Lv54 (Killer) PD vs 67 fully geared, I've been observing him for some time now and I can see that he is able to win average pvp players "Who have decent items"
                  Lv67 (Salgu) Shadow (a not so geared player) Able to defeat many korean gosu players with decent items.
                  Lv67(Kaiser) Berserker (A geared player but he adjusts item depending on the skill level of his opponent)
                  Lv67(Raiders) Warrior(Commonly uses only weapon and necklace / belts / Earrings/Removes all armor ,Bracelets and Rings) Depending on the skill level of his opponent.
                  Lv67(Electryone)Mtaoist Uses a dummy char (Not so geared char only prare) And fights heavy geared users and still able to win.
                  Lv67(밧슈)Ranger (Uses different rangers with different levels 45,50,60,63 "only rare/prare equips "no souls" Although he has a full god tier geared ranger)Depending on the skill level of his enemies, "He wants to practice very hard because he was never satisfied with his gameplay"
                  And they are just a tip of SEA, I know a lot of users who plays this game handicap which proves that C9 is not pay2win
                  I am very sure that is the same with other servers, Other servers just failed to notice them or There is just too many people who don't enjoy a little bit of hardship and just make excuses such as pay2win everytime they lose to another player who has better item than theirs. (Without considering the weeks/months/years that player put into their gears)
                  Which is very offensive and disrespectful.

                  And the game contents is changing so why stick to prare equips for pvp? Just buy player resists, NM set, Epic souls , Uniques.
                  What's the fun with using the same equip in the last 3 years?
                  and this game is an Mmorpg genre, This is not fps game where everything is fair.
                  Mmorpg, Includes different classes and different items.
                  And as for my opinion with "player resist" ruined pvp.
                  Actually it improved pvp, Now matches can last 3~4min, Before matches will be over after taoist soulburn, Reaper balrok, and BD heaven's glare.
                  Now we can enjoy long combos, Tactics , Strategies, and GET HYPED GOD MATCHES !

                  Look at this match, 100% fair/Basic/Prare items. Over in seconds ~
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zoa2FkLLfs


                  Now enjoy this epic god match which lasted for many mins with high god tier pvp skill level and god tier items(which is considered normal nowadays)
                  Game 1 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUtri5yON88
                  Game 2 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X4cZgMl2-Y

                  Comment


                  • JoJoestar
                    JoJoestar commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Practice more... sure, with who? PVP is virtually dead cause of overgearing unless u find a couple of friends or a guild who is willing to practice pvp with normal gears or without weapons for long combo fights -which aren't many around-

                    So is not pay to win? how do u call classes who can't even finish half a combo and already killed you? pfft

                    Idk what u guys do on SEA but i saw some of ur pvps and they are great, most of ur gear must be very balanced, the economy must be really good but here people can't even afford a set, the few ones with gold are lowballing everything from the poor ppl who barely farmed something decent and put it for sale, the market is broken, the population is just getting lower, arena is almost empty "practice2win" wont fix anything if the game doesnt balance thing firsts, when both newcommers and pros feel comfortable at arena with a balanced system then it will be the rise of c9 again

                    I remember back then when the lvcap was 57, u could join even at lv47 with ur hell set and kick some ass, the gear difference between sarad and 35 hell set wasn't that high but now for some reason the difference between sarad and Raebin is HUGE

                    Also the level tiers of pvp should respect the 50-57 and 63-67 -if the arena ever gets ppl back again-

                    A kind of solution would be merge the US/EU/SEA markets to avoid the lack of gold in game and provide SOLID GOLD EARNING DUNGEONS, where u get a decent ammount of GOLD, not just items or being lucky to get something to sell, JUST GOLD cause that's the thing that we lack the most in US, nobody being able to buy anything and ppl being drowned in expensive items which nobody wants to trade for

                  • Fart
                    Fart commented
                    Editing a comment
                    broken asian logic pay more for virtual games u nerd if u dont have money u must be slave or u must pay stupid small brains like their small height

                • #14
                  Originally posted by NoGameNoLife View Post
                  Look at this match, 100% fair/Basic/Prare items. Over in seconds ~ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zoa2FkLLfs Now enjoy this epic god match which lasted for many mins with high god tier pvp skill level and god tier items(which is considered normal nowadays) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X4cZgMl2-Y
                  So, what have you left for new players to enjoy PvP when it takes so much time and/or money to spend? The reality tells something different because players tend to judge you first by your gears and then by your skills if there's no lag. If the problem is beyond that e.g . even after using same gears, then it is a problem of the class itself. That's why I believe PvP should always be fair in all aspects. You obviously start PvP under geared until you try to rebalance it (in your own definition) with gears which can be interpreted differently by another player. In order to achieve practicemore2win concept, it should always be under fair circumstances. As I said, pay2win can still be used in intrusion to enjoy your hard earned gears. That's why I suggested to improve intrusion system and its rewards AND add PvP Skill Preset that has additional stats as passives including player resist in all classes builds. This will still fulfil your intention to extend the time in PvP. I think I've made it clearer to why PvP should exclude gears. For your information, I'm one of the players who heavily invest money on this game, but I try to take a fair stance so that everyone can enjoy the game.

                  Comment


                  • Mikhail
                    Mikhail commented
                    Editing a comment
                    The 'basic mode' would still be a good idea to be implemented beside preserving the current system. At least as a testing mode to see if players will enjoy it over the current mode. Let the community be the judge to see a clearer picture of what the majority want if it gets implemented. And yes C9 is an mmorpg but that doesn't mean every mmorpg game must be the way C9 is for not everyone likes it this way. To conclude, another mode (basic mode) should be added while maintaining the current mode (free mode) to satisfy both PvP categories.

                  • NoGameNoLife
                    NoGameNoLife commented
                    Editing a comment
                    yeah, so there will be the freedom of "option"
                    in the game rakion there is 1~99 (basic mode) real war 11~30 (10% exp, all stats / items enabled) advanced war 31~99 (all stats / items enabled, Well... I hope they will adapt the basic mode.

                  • EmoWasMax
                    EmoWasMax commented
                    Editing a comment
                    ok guys ..how about make 1 new channel in arena for pvp with all balance item just like rare only can enter(default mode) and it just for player want to pvp with skill only.The existing channel right now u can enter with master/uniques(god mode).So many players free to choice right???it just my suggestion...

                • #15
                  Originally posted by Tsuchiryu View Post
                  You mean this is PvE since always, right? In theory, you need some PvE first before the PvP gets good. It's idiotic to think otherwise. But yes, no denying PvP has been getting worse. P.S.: Also, yes, BnS allowing you to redistribute skill points at will when you're outside combat is vastly superior to what C9 does. No Skill Reset Scroll and the like required. Just swap points when needed and you're done. No need to spend money on something basic. Really, that reason alone would be good enough to make people jump ships.
                  Oh...idiotic...interesting...if I Recall...back when level cap was 50 and it only took 2 days to reach max level, and there wasn't even really anything to farm, pve was barely even noticed, and the pvp rooms were flooded...this game use to be more pvp oriented than anything, a long time ago...when it was worth playing

                  Comment


                  • JoJoestar
                    JoJoestar commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Those were great days... even Webzen cared and promoted the pvp tournaments around the world...
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